Daily submarine picture

[greenman407]

This looks interesting. Maybe some research can tell a few tales.

[Von Hilde]

Lookout in the crows nest of the Pinta yells down below. "I can almost see all the way to Ohio, Columbus!" The skipper yells back up to him,"Thats Columbus, Ohio. sailor!"Scuba DivingNow hear this! the Sokol or (Falcon) was the HMS Urchin a u class boat, built in 39 in England. The Royl Navy loaned it to ORP (Polish Navy) in 41 when the poles lost the Orzel, so they could maintain submarine patrols. It was one of two loaners, returned to the RN after the war. Those two boats ran the Joley Roger, and the exiled free Polish government flag since they were rogues without a country. The hash marks are for all the ships they sank and the swastika flags are for trophys of the nazi ships sunk. They operated out of Gibralter with the English

[greenman407]

Yeah, I was confused by the Nazi flags flying. You would think that it could be dangerous.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I would think those nasty things would only be hoisted once the boat cleared the break-water.

M

[greenman407]

A submarines worst nightmare.

[redboat219]

Mark 46 l presume.

[Von Hilde]

The Mk 46 is only part of the threat. That P3 that its in has quite a few other tricks up its sleeve to augment the torpedo

[Roddersuk]

Those two boats ran the Joley Roger, and the exiled free Polish government flag since they were rogues without a country. It should read "Jolly Roger" I'm not sure what you mean by the statement rogues without a country. The Poles had a country, they just weren't in it whilst fighting on the side of the Allies. All RN subs flew the Jolly Roger after a successful patrol, and the Poles adopted the tradition, and it looks like a very successful career was had. 21 sinkings, including one submarine and four gun actions. A lot more than many RN boats at the time. The last RN sub to fly a Jolly Roger was HMS Conqueror on return from the South Atlantic after sinking the Belgrano.

[Von Hilde]

Roddersuk, the term Rogue I was referring, to ment the ship and crew being without its country. Interisting to know about the RN subs and the JR. tradition. Was that carried over from the first war? and do you know which sub started it? I am also curious about the sub to sub confilct since there were few during the war. I have checked the records for all the war patrols of the Sokol and found that it sank or damaged only 19 vessels totaling aprox 55,000 t. Of these engagements, more than 80% were with the deck gun. Only a few were torpedoed, and most of them wernt sunk. The most significant attacks involving warships began with her first engagement with the Italian Aux Cruiser Cita di Palermo. Sokol fired 4 torpedos, 4 missed. It was reported to be damaged during the attack, but most likely by her sister ships torpedo. On 9 Nov 41 Sokol fired one torpedo hitting and damaging the Destroyer Aviere. On 19 Nov 43 German auxiliry Sub Chaser Mowe (60 ton) with the deck gun. The rest of the significant engagements that are recorded were with small craft destroyed by deck gun. Mostly wooden boats ranging from a 36 ton fishing boat, 64 ton schooner, to a 362 ton schooner. It rammed and sank a 36 ton Customs boat as well. If you get a chance, check the National Records Office in Kew England, for her war patrol records before she was transferred back to the RN as the Urchin HMS N 97 in 1945

[Von Hilde]

Good morning Dave, I see you lurking

[greenman407]

Some kinda new fangled torpedo shaped drone.

[Von Hilde]

mine hunter drone. Pre programmed search aplication. They have some that are ROVers as well. Which reminds me. What about a little chip to stick in a WTC to program dives, and augment the RC on the surface. Or an analog that operates a program after diving to do various manuvers then blow to surface. I know it may seem to take the fun out of complete control, but in a pool or pond you are already limited by the peramiters. I built a run free Revell Fletcher distroyer with motors and drive that had different cogs and cams and pushrods to program course changes such as a square box, rectangle, circle and oval. Not real exciting, but I didnt hook anything up as it was built just for measurements and details model for a larger scale scratch built RC ship. It seemed to be a simple operation, sort of a Rube Goldburg affair tho. I think the analog system was an inexpesive way but a chip could contain many progams altho pricey.

[Von Hilde]

I found out the first guy to raise the Jolly Roger on a Brit sub was old Max Horton himself in 1918, aboard the HMS E9. He quickly sewed one together on the way back from a sucessful patrol. It was a toung in cheek slam to the quote of the day, "that the clandistine submarine unrestricted warefare on unarmed merchants was nothing but an act of piracy". The RN submarine service tradition of the JR was never considered official and the varients between boats, of the use of the icons and hash marks was not standardised. So what you see on one particular boat was not always true for another. It appears the Polish guys had their own interpritation of what indicates what. Lost in the translation somewhere I guess. Actually the last RN sub to return with the JR hoisted was the HMS Triumph in 2011 returning from Libya after tossing a couple Tommahawks at them. There is a US Marine suadron of C-130 aircraft that fly the falg out of the hatch just above the cockpit as soon as they land and taxi to the ramp and there was an F14 Navy squadron with the flags painted on the tails. Now the F 14 is retired from service, the traditon has passed to the F18A squadron that replaced VF 84 "the Jolly rogers". There are as may different JRs as there were pirates, just about. Some were varients of the JR with sculls and cross swords or cannon but not always black and white like the movies. When piracy was first employed by the English and French they used the red pennet, todays "Bravo" flag signifying danger or blood. The french called it the "cordon jolie rouge" (pretty red banner) the English started using the black banner indicating death stemed over from the black flags hung above the villiages and houses during the black plague. Individual pirates put their own simbol on the pennets. Skulls and bones indicating death, knives and swords and cannon to psyc out the crews of the oponent instead of engagement, because they wanted the prize. The British started calling the skull and crossed bones "Jolley Roger" Roger is a spin on the word rogue and Jolley is happy so (happy rogues) It is also said that the name Roger was the nick name of the devil. whatever the case I say, a round of cheers goes to Admeral Horton for reinstating the traditon....Hip Hip!........Hoorah

[greenman407]

Old picture of some Fleetboat activity. Notice the third one over appears to be missing the face plate off the Conning Tower.Must be being modified as the one closest to the camera has not yet received this Mod but the others have. Look at the difference in size of the deck guns of the three boats furthest from the camera, compared to the one the closest.

[Von Hilde]

The deal is the first boat is still in its pre war configuration with the 3"/50 forward and a 20mm orlicon aft. Might be summer 1942 The other boats are getting the upgrade of a cut and modified tower, with a mount forward for a second Orlicon, and have replaced the little 3'gun with the old 'S' boat cannon, 4"/50 long barrel for range, because they were becoming commerce raiders on the surface. Torpedos at that time wernt so reliable. The 4" gun soon was replaced, due to it was hard to hit anything at long range from a bouncing deck. And the fact that it was reliable gun as long as you never submerged. The 5"/25 was the standard after that, like the one on the COD museum. Some of the skippers even swapped out the forward orlicon to a 40mm bofors as well. I think that was a Pacific boat option. The Orlicon had a removable gun for submerging with a water tite compartment storage but it did ok without the take down. I got to shoot one on a P/C in the Navy. They had loose tollerances, after the first few rounds knocked the dust and rust out, everything worked like a clock.Bowfins fwd 20mm Orliconbowfins 5/25 fwd mountone of the 2, 40mm Bofors fore and aft on the Cod4"/50 's' boat gun"S"3 crew with 6"gunrare black gunners mate,on an 'S' boat. President Wilson had segragated the Navy after WWI and most black sailors were service rates only. If you were already a "right arm rate" that is a criticle rate like gunner or torpedoman machinest ect the rating earned was kept. Service or left arm rates were cooks, stewerds, messmen, clerks, ect. By the end of WWII all rates were worn on the left arm and Truman had intigrated the military. That big 6" gun came from a WWI destroyer. It was aslo used on the old Nautilus and Argonaut and a few other larger long range Narwhal class boats which were fitted with 2, one foredeck and one afterdeck. They were used as shore batterys thruout the Pacific bases as well.3"/50 the relitivly small, pre war original deck gun for the fleet. a pea shooter