Need some help with Arkmodel 1/48 Type VII

[RCSubGuy]

[WARNING! - the following is a pre-coffee, unedited, early AM response, so apologies if I'm less amiable than usual. No offense intended]

Re: Arkmodel cylinders:

Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Since we're mildly criticizing, the community is here to help, and that includes advice on what to get and why. A quick question to the forum, on the DiveTribe that you're a member of, or to me directly would have netted you the right answer up front and saved you time, money and hassles. We have resources to help people in this crazy, frustrating hobby. Use them!

Re: Hobby Frustrations:

What really ticks me off about this hobby is what you mentioned: The many bad products out there. You don't get that when you build a tank, racecar, plane, ship. Those kits are all straight forward for the most part whereas with subs the good kits are the exception. Sucks. Somebody should fill that niche. We don't need a RTR sub but something that doesn't need a mechanics and engineering degree in the assembly.

This is not a hobby for the timid, the untalented or the inexperienced. Many, including myself, consider this a hobby for the elite. That's not pride or snobbishness, it's a simple statement of fact. Part of the reason for the exclusivity is the difficulty of building these things and the lack of information and resources. I agree with that. But, don't blame the few vendors who are trying to keep this hobby afloat (or patrolling at depth, as the case may be). The issue is that the hobby is so darned small. We're talking, at most, a few thousand people in the entire world with working boats. The superb and easy to assemble tank, plane and car kits you mentioned earlier are the result of decades of R&D and hundreds of thousands of products supported by hundreds of vendors worldwide. How many vendors support subs? I bet you could count them on your fingers and have a lot of digits left over.

I agree that a simple and easy to assemble kit is a must, and I and a few others are currently working on project to bring this into reality. No, I don't have an ETA. I won't commit to one for exactly the reason that you highlighted above. Things happen. Dates get pushed back. Potential customers get mad.

Re: "Mild criticism"

I googled the videos online but since Bob Martin put in his own WTC they won't really help me in this case and quite frankly I would have ordered a WTC from him if they were available, but no (and yes, that's a mild criticism to the shifting release date).

I've always tried to be forthcoming with my efforts to put a new cylinder to market, my progress, or my lack thereof. I've always been up front about the challenges with workload at the shop and my struggles with implementing a new cylinder design. I'm sorry that the timeline didn't fit into your schedule. I'm doing the best I can. Bear in mind that everything that is put out there is shoehorned in between customer builds, R&D, advertising, website updates, accounting, inventory ordering and control, packing and shipping. It's just me and one other guy.

All I can say is that the wait will be worth it.


Bob

[TuptubBuilder]

I would like to humbly add my two cents as a newbie who has no working boats. Yes the Arkmodel WTC does not work “as is”. And even though the design is based on never opening the WTC and the piston tank is a horrible copy of the Engel model I give Arkmodel an “A” for effort. The kit just exemplifies the difficulties and challenges that this hobby presents. I would be willing to be part of a group that develops a “park flyer” design for newbies. A “bare bones”, bath tub sized, 2.4 GHz boat that doesn’t break the bank or require a machine shop / 3D printer to build.

[tifosi12]

Still in a fetal position crying over spilled milk. Nah. I will use the internals aka electronics of the Arkmodel WTC for some other project.

Already moved on to a new project where I'll be putting Dave's Caswell WTC with single drive to good use. Bought a new model from Ota in Czech Republic and my 3D printer is now busy for the next 2 weeks printing it. With some luck I should have something ready for Carmel, which is really the goal of this year.

As for the Arkmodel type VII: I'll have to wait until Bob finally releases his new WTCs. Timing wise that's not gonna work for IN but so be it. Sounds more like a next winter project.

On that note and since you guys seem to call a spade a spade: What's the verdict on these WTCs from the UK

http://www.rcsubs.co.uk/our-products

They look very good to me and there is one that claims to fit the Arkmodel Type VII. Unfortunately they don't give any dimensions and it also lacks a forward servo for the front dive planes (yes I know a real man like Dave just builds an around the corner all the way forward contraption controlled by the rear dive plane servo, but I'm not a real man but busy cooing with my Iguana).
Regardless, any comments on these WTCs? Short of having something from Bob they look pretty good to me.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I've been building R/C planes, tanks, ships and was big into High Power Rocketry, where I learned a good deal about manufacturing and electronics. My understanding is fairly good, where I'm weak at is fabrication like you are doing with your tools etc. So in essence I can follow directions and assemble a kit by the book but I couldn't scratch build the parts for it. At least with 3D printing I have now a bit of a break in that.

My first project was a 1/72 Type VII Revell conversion using your fittings kit. That almost worked: The sub is working except for taking left turns where the rudder is more flapping in the breeze than anything (oddly enough right turns work fine). Then I tried the XXIII type using your Caswell WTC. Looked all good but for the life of me I couldn't get the cut of the upper hall straight. Tried it three times and thus successfully destroyed three perfectly fine kits. So the Arkmodel Type VII is a good choice as it is a by the numbers build. Except for this darn WTC. I didn't know that the thing required assembly. I had one from Engel before and that was a disaster as well.

So I do think I know what I can and cannot do. Given a nice WTC from you or Bob I'm sure I could bring the Arkmodel to a successful end.

In regards to regrouping: No worries, your Caswell WTC is already waiting for a new project where I 3D print the boat. Not trivial but has a higher chance of success than trying to mod an existing plastic kit. As long as I have something working for Carmel I'm fine. Few months left to go.

What really ticks me off about this hobby is what you mentioned: The many bad products out there. You don't get that when you build a tank, racecar, plane, ship. Those kits are all straight forward for the most part whereas with subs the good kits are the exception. Sucks. Somebody should fill that niche. We don't need a RTR sub but something that doesn't need a mechanics and engineering degree in the assembly.

PS: We "met" on Bob's dive tribe. So I'm not scared by your tough sailor's talk. :) But thanks for taking the time to help a newbie.

Excellent. Your credentials are extensive and will serve you well. Send me pictures of the 1/72 Type-7 rudder mechanism -- maybe we can work out the rudder throw problem and get that boat into running shape for you.

Since I retired from the SD business Bob is working his best to finalize his own version and will only put those up for sale once he's confident he has a reasonably priced, well working product -- as his standard of business demands. I'm sure one of his first SD's will be a two-shaft version sized for that beautiful bigger Type-7 kit.

Here's how you should have cut that break between the Type-23 hull halves:











But that's water under the bridge -- after clobbering three expensive hull kits you've likely soured on that project. However, that SD will find application in the soon to be released 1/96 STURGEON GRP kit Bob will be selling mid-year. May I recommend that to you?

You want a running boat by regatta time. Which will it be, sir?

David

[tifosi12]

[FONT=Calibri]I would like to humbly add my two cents as a newbie who has no working boats. Yes the Arkmodel WTC does not work “as is”. And even though the design is based on never opening the WTC and the piston tank is a horrible copy of the Engel model I give Arkmodel an “A” for effort.

Now that explains a lot. I had an Engel WTC before and it was a ridiculous mess to assemble. Needless to say I failed pretty much right away.

[tifosi12]

Excellent. Your credentials are extensive and will serve you well. Send me pictures of the 1/72 Type-7 rudder mechanism -- maybe we can work out the rudder throw problem and get that boat into running shape for you.

Since I retired from the SD business Bob is working his best to finalize his own version and will only put those up for sale once he's confident he has a reasonably priced, well working product -- as his standard of business demands. I'm sure one of his first SD's will be a two-shaft version sized for that beautiful bigger Type-7 kit.


But that's water under the bridge -- after clobbering three expensive hull kits you've likely soured on that project. However, that SD will find application in the soon to be released 1/96 STURGEON GRP kit Bob will be selling mid-year. May I recommend that to you?

You want a running boat by regatta time. Which will it be, sir?

David

Actually after my first attempt with the XXIII I built a rig even you'd been proud of. Much bigger installation than yours actually (that was before lumber prices went sky high) and a Dremel tool in a similar installation. Problem was that the hull of the boat is so think, it starts to flex and warp once the Dremel cutter puts pressure on it. Then the cut is no longer a perfect line. My other issue was that the little plastic sticks you made for the fittings kit didn't stick to the boat. I used a gazillion ton of Krazy glue and Epoxy and made them stick somewhat but that was still no clean way to mount the top part. That said your other parts from the fittings kit were excellent, I got the dive planes and the prop to work just fine but could never cleanly close that hull. So yes, that's an abandoned mine at this point.

So I'm using your Caswell WTC for Ota's 1/12 Seehund. Fingers crossed. I'm in the honeymoon phase of a new sub project. Haven't reached the 7th year itch yet.

As for your kind offer regarding the 1/72 Type VII. Yes, I'd love to get some input from you for that. My feeling is that its a bit of a lost case at this point. I think I drilled too big of a hole for one of the rudder anchors and that's why it is unstable. And honestly once I get the 1/48 Type VII to run, my interest in the smaller boat will likely be eclipsed. It was my first boat and I learned a ton. I don't even know whether I'd be willing to take it as is to Carmel. People would probably just laugh at me and it.

[Subculture]

I would be willing to be part of a group that develops a “park flyer” design for newbies. A “bare bones”, bath tub sized, 2.4 GHz boat that doesn’t break the bank or require a machine shop / 3D printer to build.

£255, just add radio (any frequency you like, as long as it's legal) and batteries. Static diving too. If you can't get one of these going, find another hobby.

http://www.rcsubs.co.uk/aquabat

[redboat219]

I would be willing to be part of a group that develops a “park flyer” design for newbies. A “bare bones”, bath tub sized, 2.4 GHz boat that doesn’t break the bank or require a machine shop / 3D printer to build.

Something like a dynamic diver with bow planes and rudder only.

[TuptubBuilder]

I was actually thinking of what Maximus-Modellbau or RC Submarine Shipyard offer for Trumpeter models with the accommodation of a 6 ch 2.4 GHz receiver

[tifosi12]

I was actually thinking of what Maximus-Modellbau or RC Submarine Shipyard offer for Trumpeter models with the accommodation of a 6 ch 2.4 GHz receiver

Just noticed that you mentioned in your original definition the term "bath tub sized". That's actually a very good point. Those among us who don't have a pool (raising my hand) or nearby pond (raising my hand again) need some way to get the trim right. Since I also don't have a tub I bought a HUGE plastic container, which is just about 48" inches long. That's good enough for beginner boats. It won't fit the 1/48 Arkmodel but that's on me, I should have measured before.

BTW: I wouldn't focus much on the 2.4 GHz requirement. There are plenty of 70 MHz radios around. I have a couple of VEX transmitters and half a dozen receivers, so I'm good for some years to come. You can find them easily on German eBay and then of course your boat can actually fully submerge.

[Subculture]

Here's another. About 20" long, dynamic diving and inexpensive. Pre printed parts are available if you cannot print your own.

https://www.tauchrobotershop.de/bausatz-tiburoncito/

There are also several good designs on thingiverse, free of charge, which can be uploaded to a printing bureau if you lack a personal 3d printer. Stick to the smaller models, and the costs can be quite reasonable.

[TuptubBuilder]

Thanks everyone. This is all great stuff. It helps me to stay motivated. I only mentioned the 2.4 GHz because of size, features, cost and availability.

[rwtdiver]

[WARNING! - the following is a pre-coffee, unedited, early AM response, so apologies if I'm less amiable than usual. No offense intended]

Re: Arkmodel cylinders:

Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Since we're mildly criticizing, the community is here to help, and that includes advice on what to get and why. A quick question to the forum, on the DiveTribe that you're a member of, or to me directly would have netted you the right answer up front and saved you time, money and hassles. We have resources to help people in this crazy, frustrating hobby. Use them!

Re: Hobby Frustrations:


This is not a hobby for the timid, the untalented or the inexperienced. Many, including myself, consider this a hobby for the elite. That's not pride or snobbishness, it's a simple statement of fact. Part of the reason for the exclusivity is the difficulty of building these things and the lack of information and resources. I agree with that. But, don't blame the few vendors who are trying to keep this hobby afloat (or patrolling at depth, as the case may be). The issue is that the hobby is so darned small. We're talking, at most, a few thousand people in the entire world with working boats. The superb and easy to assemble tank, plane and car kits you mentioned earlier are the result of decades of R&D and hundreds of thousands of products supported by hundreds of vendors worldwide. How many vendors support subs? I bet you could count them on your fingers and have a lot of digits left over.

I agree that a simple and easy to assemble kit is a must, and I and a few others are currently working on project to bring this into reality. No, I don't have an ETA. I won't commit to one for exactly the reason that you highlighted above. Things happen. Dates get pushed back. Potential customers get mad.

Re: "Mild criticism"

I've always tried to be forthcoming with my efforts to put a new cylinder to market, my progress, or my lack thereof. I've always been up front about the challenges with workload at the shop and my struggles with implementing a new cylinder design. I'm sorry that the timeline didn't fit into your schedule. I'm doing the best I can. Bear in mind that everything that is put out there is shoehorned in between customer builds, R&D, advertising, website updates, accounting, inventory ordering and control, packing and shipping. It's just me and one other guy.

All I can say is that the wait will be worth it.


Bob

tifosi12,

I agree with everything Bob states above! I have been in this hobby about 1 1/2 years now! Totally new to it from the start. My passion is 3D printing, and building stuff! I went to Thingiverse, found a submarine called the "Gotland" I built it as just a model, and then I was hooked! Then I researched around and found Bob Martin (Nautilus Drydocks) Started asking questions (by email at first) His advice to me right off the bat, was "Crawl First Then Walk" David M. gave that same advice!

I now have 7 Nautilus Drydocks 3D printable subs, 3 in parts stage as I write, and 1 I just started before my Dremel took a dump! At this point in my sub hobby, I have yet to be able to put one sub under the surface! I have scratch built 6 WTC for these boats with just motor, rudder, and dive planes! Surface runners only, with only one that was capable of a dynamic dive!



Long story short! I have just reached the point where I am starting to understand how an RC Sub works! I spent hours and hours experimenting just to get my boats in the water. Experimenting with the hull preparation, how to build a WTC to house the motor and electronics!

tifosi12! Start from scratch, research, learn, experiment, and then build on! You will get it if you WORK at it! As your success's grow, so will you a long with your enthusiasm! Sorry for the rant guys! Just my take on this wonderful hobby we have! Thank you Bob Martin, David M. SUB Ed, just to mention many that have helped me (and are still helping me) along the way!!!!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[tifosi12]

tifosi12! Start from scratch, research, learn, experiment, and then build on! You will get it if you WORK at it! As your success's grow, so will you a long with your enthusiasm! Sorry for the rant guys! Just my take on this wonderful hobby we have! Thank you Bob Martin, David M. SUB Ed, just to mention many that have helped me (and are still helping me) along the way!!!!

Actually I love the unchartered path and finding out stuff and learning. To be totally honest, that's why I stopped with tanks: Once you've built one as a kit, the rest are similar, so I developed my own. I love that part. What frustrates me to no end is that there are vendors out there (not including Bob of course) who sell stuff or as Dave called it stinking pile of xXXX knowing full well it won't work. That's disappointing. And Arkmodel is not the only ones who have done that. I had other bad experiences in Asia as well as in Europe.

And just for the record: I have a successful surface runner and one soso capable of diving. Now I want to build one that static dives without an asterisk or excuses. I'm pretty sure I'll get there eventually. As Ringo said: With a little bit of help from my friends.

Once I have a fully working static diver I'll move on to develop my own. As my boss once told me: Ideas are easy, implementation is hard. I'm full of ideas. :)

[tifosi12]

Ah shucks. Now I have two responses of mine on here that are not posted because the system thinks they are spam. Great. :(

I edited them a couple of times as I tend to make typos along the way. Apparently if you edit too many times you're a spammer. Nice.

Maybe the one who shall not be named can release my posts as non SPAM please? Not that they are greater than Shakespeare, but...