Russian Borei Sub Build

[QuarterMaster]

Hi Rob,


Yes, this is my Borei kit that has been on the market for a couple of years now. She is a nice boat however being a Russian Boomer she has a small rudder area and isn't so great at turning.
Nice and big hull, plenty of room for everything.


Dave H

I never understood their design philosophy for using a "balanced/Fixed Structure Rudder" as opposed to the US use of Semi Balanced Spade rudder design.
Granted they must track straight w/o much rudder input (like a full skeg rudder blue water sailboat), but that's an assumption as I never been at one's helm, though I did on a US Boomer lol.

My 1:96 LAFAYETTE Class turns pretty tight, even on the surface. People have even remarked so when seeing my boat run..

In an underwater knife fight with oncoming Torpedoes, I'll take a 35kt, highly maneuverable boat any time. Playing "Cold Waters" taught me out turning fast torpedoes is....life.

Just a thought, but the BOREI is a fine looking boat. Great looking kit!

I understand the Project 955A (BOREI-II) has a more "Western" approach.






REALLY digging this build!!

[rwtdiver]

I never understood their design philosophy for using a "balanced/Fixed Structure Rudder" as opposed to the US use of Semi Balanced Spade rudder design.
Granted they must track straight w/o much rudder input (like a full skeg rudder blue water sailboat), but that's an assumption as I never been at one's helm, though I did on a US Boomer lol.

My 1:96 LAFAYETTE Class turns pretty tight, even on the surface. People have even remarked so when seeing my boat run..

In an underwater knife fight with oncoming Torpedoes, I'll take a 35kt, highly maneuverable boat any time. Playing "Cold Waters" taught me out turning fast torpedoes is....life.

Just a thought, but the BOREI is a fine looking boat. Great looking kit!

I understand the Project 955A (BOREI-II) has a more "Western" approach.






REALLY digging this build!!

Ed,

Thank you for the great information and the excellent photos of the Borei!



I know at one time David M. had some input on the amount of throw for the rudder! Can you tell what is the correct amount required for a good turn at scale speed? I think he mentioned you could have to much throw, and the rudder would become ineffective!

Thanks again for chiming in with those photos ED!!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[QuarterMaster]

Rob,

Not sure what this particular boat has, but I do remember my boats from when I was Helmsman. BTW, I was on drugs earlier, for the record GRANT is a JAMES MADISON Class, not LAFAYETTE.
Here are the standard commands and rudder angle.


Rudder Amidships (RA) 0° (d'uh)

Right/Left STANDARD Rudder (RSR/LSR) 20°

Right/Left FULL Rudder (RFR/LFR) 30°

Right/Left HARD Rudder (RHR/LHR) 35° (Emergency only, putting a rudder to the stops can jam it)

So I'm happy with an ~60° Servo swing end-end. Always worked for me.
Plus I see a lot of drivers, even experienced ones, drive fast and use hard over rudders. I prefer "ghosting" along with an easy touch on the rudder.

The reason a sub might survive a torpedo chase is her tighter turning ability, the torp travelling much faster takes longer to turn and makes it possible to escape it's cone of detection..
Need to understand advance and transfer for your different speeds and rudder angles. IOW, drive your boat to know your boat.



BTW, have you seen this video? I post Arron's sub briefs at the SC site. More research for your boat.

Project "Northwind" 955 Borei

[rwtdiver]

Rob,

Not sure what this particular boat has, but I do remember my boats from when I was Helmsman. BTW, I was on drugs earlier, for the record GRANT is a JAMES MADISON Class, not LAFAYETTE.
Here are the standard commands and rudder angle.


Rudder Amidships (RA) 0° (d'uh)

Right/Left STANDARD Rudder (RSR/LSR) 20°

Right/Left FULL Rudder (RFR/LFR) 30°

Right/Left HARD Rudder (RHR/LHR) 35° (Emergency only, putting a rudder to the stops can jam it)

So I'm happy with an ~60° Servo swing end-end. Always worked for me.
Plus I see a lot of drivers, even experienced ones, drive fast and use hard over rudders. I prefer "ghosting" along with an easy touch on the rudder.

The reason a sub might survive a torpedo chase is her tighter turning ability, the torp travelling much faster takes longer to turn and makes it possible to escape it's cone of detection..
Need to understand advance and transfer for your different speeds and rudder angles. IOW, drive your boat to know your boat.



BTW, have you seen this video? I post Arron's sub briefs at the SC site. More research for your boat.

Project "Northwind" 955 Borei

That video was the best 20 min .video I have ever seen! The stop screen shots of that sub are great for the detail they show! It's inspiring me to want to really TAKE MY TIME in doing the detail work on my boat!

I most likely will give the rudder as much throw as I can, and go easy on the controls! I do not like to see RC subs operated like speed boats! Scale speed for me!

Thanks again ED for all the information! Very helpful! (No more drugs)!! Ha Ha

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[rwtdiver]

Worked on the Borei hull sections today!



Sorry the photos came out a little dark! I have the upper and lower hull sections glued up. My new Dremel is working on the rest of the section connectors (WTC holders)!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[rwtdiver]

Today I started back to work on the Borei!





I have the top and bottom hull segments glued together! I must say, they really lined up very nice! The one thing that I did do was enlarged the segment supports just to offer up more support to the hull structure.

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[rwtdiver]

The photos below show the enlarged segment supports!



They where 1/4" wide, but I enlarged the to 1/2" wide and maintained the same thickness. These will offer up a little better support!




I also did some fabrication work on the stern section, installing the bottom rudder and the sleeves for the upper rudder and the dive planes!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[biggsgolf]

Looking good! Thanks always for sharing.

[rwtdiver]

Looking good! Thanks always for sharing.

Thanks Bruce,

Looking forward to this build! The files I got from Bob (Nautilus Drydocks) are excellent, and everything is fitting together really well. I have been working on the WTC for this boat in between sub building, and it is just about done!

Ounce again, I am sure to get flack on making it a surface runner! (possibly dynamic diver) But we move on!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[rwtdiver]

I have made some headway today! I have all the joint supports sanded and all glued in both top and bottom hull sections!



I have made sure the WTC will fit securely to both the top and bottom hull! I am using a 7.4 volt WTC that I designed and fabricated for my Redoutable, and my Astute 3D printed submarines! This cylinder was designed for surface and dynamic diving (if our pool where long enough and could get enough speed up)! For my purpose in the Borei, this WTC works great!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[RCSubGuy]

It wouldn't be anything at all to create alternate rudders that are free-flying. I, personally, like the stabilizer look and added strength, but added performance would be worth the compromise!

Bob

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

It wouldn't be anything at all to create alternate rudders that are free-flying. I, personally, like the stabilizer look and added strength, but added performance would be worth the compromise!

Bob

To Bob's point: at least 'enhance' the lower rudder!

Boats that feature a fixed vertical stabilizer forward of their rudders typically have a very large turning radius. Commie boats are natorious for this problem.

A good cheat is to attach a clear rudder extension to the lower rudder. Who's gonna know?!... Without the rudder extension this 1/72 ALFA is almost undrivable in tight confines.



David

[rwtdiver]

To Bob's point: at least 'enhance' the lower rudder!

Boats that feature a fixed vertical stabilizer forward of their rudders typically have a very large turning radius. Commie boats are natorious for this problem.

A good cheat is to attach a clear rudder extension to the lower rudder. Who's gonna know?!... Without the rudder extension this 1/72 ALFA is almost undrivable in tight confines.



David

Thanks David!

I do understand what you are saying! I did the rudder extension thing on my Nautilus, and it certainly made a big difference in radius turning!

I worked on the hull today, and was able to get the upper and lower sections to line up great. I used pins to line up the two sections.



I am in the process of enlarging (re-printing) the prop system on this boat! I would like to stay with the same look and system as the full scale boat. Bob Martin mentioned that the existing prop and housing might not provide enough thrust, so I will see how enlarging it might work out! If not, I could go to a brass prop!



We will see!!!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[rwtdiver]

I enlarged the propeller and the thruster housing in order to give the Borei more propulsion speed!



The original prop dia. was 27.00 mm! The new system that I constructed has a 35.50 mm prop, and larger thruster housing to support the bigger prop.



I still have more fitting and sanding to do to get everything moving freely and smooth!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[rwtdiver]

I realize I could just eliminate the jet pump system and install a 7 bladed brass prop, and I am sure that would move the sub through the water! But I want to keep the boat in it's original design and just hope that I could get enough movement from the enlarged original design!

I guess my question for those in the know, and based on what you see, would the larger (35.50 mm) jet pump system move the boat through the water? I am not looking for speed at all!

Input appreciated!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"