3D Printer

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  • tifosi12
    Commander
    • Jul 2020
    • 346

    #16
    Originally posted by george
    Lindberg made one BUT it had design issues to a sharp eye BUT if looked at from a distance, would be usable. Still see them on ebay from time to time.
    Yes, and I got that one already. In my storage area for future conversion. Yes, it has some issues, but some can be fixed and some I'll just ignore. :) The thing is HUGE. Apparently 1/72 but nearly twice as long as my Revell type VII of the same scale. The Japanese built subs like they were battlehships. :)

    AFAIK at the time they released that kit there was talk of another one and I have followed that "ghost" around on the internet. Not sure it was ever released, apparently Walmart had it in inventory, but maybe that was just an ad and never materialized after Lindberg saw all the issues they had with the first kit. Bummer.
    Last edited by tifosi12; 12-26-2020, 10:45 AM.

    Comment

    • tifosi12
      Commander
      • Jul 2020
      • 346

      #17
      Originally posted by Subculture
      I use Cura slicer software, which is free, and works very well for me with my much modified Creality Ender 2 machine. I think Creality have ironed a lot of bugs out of their machines since i got my Ender 2. I found the mechanical hardware reasonable (not perfect but serviceable), but the electronics had issues, and i ended up replacing he mainboard, PSU and cooling fans on my machine. The board on my machine seemed to lose its firmware, resulting in a blank display, i wasn't alone with this fault. The fans went very noisy, and oiling only temporarily relieved that, so i replaced them with old computer fans I had laying around. The PSU put a ticking noise on the workshop intercom system, which suggested poor noise suppression- I replaced it with a secondhand xbox PSU.

      I expect that's thoroughly put you off, but there are plenty of people with totally stock Creality printers that haven't missed a beat, and I think they have reviewed their quality control since the days when i got mine.

      I've only worked with PLA until now, but recently purchased a reel of ABS to try out some experiments with. Cura has a mode which prints a draft shield around the item being printed, and this is specifically for plastics with a higher melting point that suffer from warping on open frame type printers. No experience yet, but have feedback from others it works well, and have seen a video of it in operation, so I'm hopeful of a successful outcome- we'll see.
      I have an Ender 3 Pro and I'm using their software Creality. I have Cura as well but prefer Creality, simply because I know it so well by now. Using it in expert mode though. The software is good, the printers as you say are a bit hit or miss: I had the same printer before until the feeding mechanism for the filament went bust. Probably not mechanically but electronically as in fried CPU or something. So I bought the same printer again and after just a couple of prints its mechanics for the horizontal axis gave up. So I used the good parts of both machines and built a Franken Ender 3 Pro which so far (knock on wood) has done a great job cranking out submarine parts for days on end. The good news is that an Ender 3 Pro is about $ 200 so if something breaks, buy another one. :)

      If $ doesn't matter I'd go for the top printer from Dremel. The thing is a dream come true.

      Comment

      • Subculture
        Admiral
        • Feb 2009
        • 2119

        #18
        The hardware on mine was okay(ish).

        Some of the allen bolts supplied seemed to defy any allen key in my collection, metric or imperial, being some strange standard of their own that fell between the two- lousy tooling stamping them out I assume. I replaced a few of the bolts in the critical areas, which cost pennies, but really isn't something you should have to do. Adding a bottle of threadlock to your order is also worthwhile, as these machines do produce enough vibration in use to shake themselves loose after a bit of use.

        The other main issue was the z axis alignment. As standard there was no adjustment, and the factory position was far too stiff. This was a common complaint, and lots of mods out there, I made a new bracket from aluminium which allowed adjustment, and the motion was very supple after that.

        The advantage of tinkering is you learn a lot about your printer, the disadvantage is it takes up time you could have spent modelmaking. I'm sure in future years we'll look back in amusement at these machines, much in the same way people would be amused by daisy wheel or dot matrix paper printers. I think the future lies with powder sintering and resin polymerisation, the latter has already come down hugely in price, and I'm sure powder sintering will follow suit.

        Comment

        • tifosi12
          Commander
          • Jul 2020
          • 346

          #19
          Originally posted by Subculture

          The advantage of tinkering is you learn a lot about your printer, the disadvantage is it takes up time you could have spent modelmaking. I'm sure in future years we'll look back in amusement at these machines, much in the same way people would be amused by daisy wheel or dot matrix paper printers. I think the future lies with powder sintering and resin polymerisation, the latter has already come down hugely in price, and I'm sure powder sintering will follow suit.
          Fully agreed. Yes, I grew up with PCs, my first was a Sinclair ZX-81 (IIRC) and I remember my first dot matrix printer (Epson of course). We have come a long way since and I bet the 3D printers will go through the same evolution. Prices have already come way down, which is nice.

          As for the self-help videos on Youtube: some of them drive me crazy with the fluff they cover and when you have a real issue you're more likely not to find an answer out there, so yes you have to learn your printer

          Comment

          • Subculture
            Admiral
            • Feb 2009
            • 2119

            #20
            I think prices of the Chinese FDM printers are pretty much bottomed out, can't see how they could go significantly lower. I think the resin printers will soon be sub £100, almost there now for a lower resolution model, but not quite.

            I think the big leap will be in easier to use CAD software, especially for drawing complex 3d geometry. I use Fusion 360 which is pretty fantastic, but it's still tricky to work with once you move beyond basic shapes.

            Comment

            • tifosi12
              Commander
              • Jul 2020
              • 346

              #21
              Originally posted by Subculture
              I think prices of the Chinese FDM printers are pretty much bottomed out, can't see how they could go significantly lower. I think the resin printers will soon be sub £100, almost there now for a lower resolution model, but not quite.

              I think the big leap will be in easier to use CAD software, especially for drawing complex 3d geometry. I use Fusion 360 which is pretty fantastic, but it's still tricky to work with once you move beyond basic shapes.
              Yeah I looked at Fusion, was a bit too complex for me. I'm using Tinkercad. Quite limited but easy to use and works for many simple tasks.

              Comment

              • Subculture
                Admiral
                • Feb 2009
                • 2119

                #22
                Yes i understand, it is bewildering at first. For the first few weeks I just produced garbage, and I still make loads of mistakes. It's like learning any new skill, start simple. Begin with sketching, then learn how to constrain dimensions, then from a sketch extrude, revolve, sweep and loft into a solid. Then you can apply bevels, chamfers, holes, threads etc.

                It gets more advanced once you start getting into complex geometry, where shapes twist and turn over two planes. Once comfortable with solids, start looking at surfaces, which give you more flexibility, then there are also the sculpting interface with T-splines, I'm currently wading my way through that at the moment.

                What I like about Fusion is that everything you need (plus some) is in one package. Prior to that, it seemed like you needed to learn three or four pieces of software, or pay a fortune for a package that had far more features than required.

                Comment

                • CC Clarke
                  Lieutenant Commander
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 239

                  #23
                  3D Modeling is something I've had a little experience with both as a student and later, instructor, so I'll throw out a little of what I've learned along the way. I was very fortunate to have an experienced instructor who taught modeling methodology and not just tool usage.

                  I've been creating 3D models professionally for fourteen years and can assure those of you who are into or are contemplating learning 3D modeling, the learning never ends. If someone tells you they're an expert, their either delusional or worse. There's a big difference between an artist and an artiste. I will always be a student, ready to learn new techniques. There are multiple methods to achieve the desired form, so there is no one right way to get the end result. though there are some methods that are faster than others, depending on one's skill level.

                  There are multiple styles of modeling for both hard surface and organic models. (Submarine models are often combinations of hard surface and organic.) Techniques use splines, (excellent for lofting hull lines) box, NURBS, point-to-point, and edge modeling just to name a few. The most accurate modeling method is with blueprints, but sometimes all you're going to have a photos. The most important thing to have when modeling a complex object is as much reference material as possible. A good model can easily take months of hard work to produce. Especially where organic shapes are concerned, it isn't enough to create the shape, but smooth poly flow that creates accurate geometry and lends itself well to 3D printing should be the goal. If a model containing a lot of compound curves has insufficient polys, the result will be unsightly faceting requiring a lot of manual effort to hide before painting.

                  Generally, modeling style is only taught in formal classes. It is almost impossible to learn style on one's own unless you're one of those very rare, gifted individuals. The majority of modelers are left to try for an accurate shape. For simple models and creating holes in bulkheads, this is fine; but if you want to model something like a Whiskey Long Bin from scratch, organic modeling techniques are the way to go.


                  It was interesting to note how many students dropped out of the modeling class I attended at Universal Studios. Out of the 31 that showed up full of enthusiasm on the first day, there were 15 left two weeks later and 12 after three months. I asked the Director if this was a normal attrition rate and he said it was fairly typical. Apparently most of the students didn't expect it would require so much work. And it work it was. For every hour in class, there was at least two hours of homework. Weekends were spent wrestling polys for Monday presentation deadlines.

                  Luckily, I wasn't there to learn special effects for working in film or TV - I had an engineering job and my company paid my way to add a new capability to our service portfolio. I three myself into it and learned as much as I could in the six months I spent there, living in a hotel.


                  Once the class was over, the real learning began. Spending 12-15 hours a day for the first year, I was able to double my speed about every three months. Speed and accuracy are the keys to becoming an efficient modeler. It takes a tremendous amount of perseverance and practice to get to the point where you have the confidence to tackle anything.

                  The tricks that work for me are:
                  1. Set realistic deadlines.
                  2. Build one section at a time and stick with it.
                  3. Save, save, save! There are few things more depressing when modeling that to suffer a crash and have to redo an hour's worth of work. I save my files every three to five minutes religiously.
                  4. Keep learning new ways to use old tools.
                  5. Take frequent breaks.
                  6. Use symmetry and mirroring to reduce the workload whenever possible.
                  7. Challenge yourself to trying new techniques.

                  During this holiday where I'm stuck inside, I'm working on a submarine at the moment and have multiple versions, borrowing parts from a master to save time as I modify each version. One is for a static display model and the others will be optimized for 3D printing.

                  For software. I use Lightwave3D. It was the first commercial software for "regular" folks, introduced 25 years ago on the Amiga. It has been used on numerous award-winning movies and TV shows since it is also an animation program. I have access to plenty of high-end CAD software like SolidWorks and ProE, but can create faster with just as much accuracy using Lightwave. Plus, I can texture, light and animate with a degree of realism that CAD programs can't touch.

                  I've attached a couple of wire renders from an artist who is much better than I when it comes to sub-D modeling (where the mesh is manipulated like a piece of clay to get smooth, rounded faces with a minimal number of polys.) Notice how the polys (all quads) flow in uniform directions, which blend and contribute to the overall organic shape. STLs use triangles (3-sided polys) which are nothing more than sub-divided quads (four-sided polys.) I model in quads and then turn the mesh into triangles before outputting as an STL for 3D printing.

                  If you have any modeling questions, chime in, and I'll offer suggestions if possible.

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	SU-57 Tail.jpg Views:	0 Size:	68.2 KB ID:	146188
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by CC Clarke; 12-27-2020, 09:29 AM.

                  Comment

                  • tifosi12
                    Commander
                    • Jul 2020
                    • 346

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Subculture

                    What I like about Fusion is that everything you need (plus some) is in one package. Prior to that, it seemed like you needed to learn three or four pieces of software, or pay a fortune for a package that had far more features than required.
                    That sounds more like my approach: I'm using a set of 3D tools each for some few purposes. Thankfully the industry settled on the STL standard, so stuff is interchangeably.

                    Comment

                    • CC Clarke
                      Lieutenant Commander
                      • Aug 2020
                      • 239

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Subculture
                      Yes i understand, it is bewildering at first. For the first few weeks I just produced garbage, and I still make loads of mistakes. It's like learning any new skill, start simple. Begin with sketching, then learn how to constrain dimensions, then from a sketch extrude, revolve, sweep and loft into a solid. Then you can apply bevels, chamfers, holes, threads etc.

                      It gets more advanced once you start getting into complex geometry, where shapes twist and turn over two planes. Once comfortable with solids, start looking at surfaces, which give you more flexibility, then there are also the sculpting interface with T-splines, I'm currently wading my way through that at the moment.

                      What I like about Fusion is that everything you need (plus some) is in one package. Prior to that, it seemed like you needed to learn three or four pieces of software, or pay a fortune for a package that had far more features than required.
                      3D Modeling is something I've had a little experience with both as a student and later, instructor, so I'll throw out a little of what I've learned along the way. I was very fortunate to have an experienced instructor who taught modeling methodology and not just tool usage. (Dedicated CAD programs and 3D modeling software are similar, but not the same. This post concerns 3D modeling which is entirely mesh-based.)

                      I've been creating 3D models professionally for fourteen years and can assure those of you who are into or are contemplating learning 3D modeling, the learning never ends. If someone tells you they're an expert, their either delusional or worse.

                      There's a big difference between an artist and an artiste. I will always be a student, ready to learn new techniques.

                      There are multiple methods to achieve the desired form, so there is no one right way to get the end result. There are some methods that are faster than others, depending on one's skill level, so it pays (in time saved) to learn as many methods to get the best results in the least amount of time.

                      There are multiple techniques of modeling for both hard surface and organic models. (Submarine models are often combinations of hard surface and organic.) Techniques use splines, (excellent for lofting hull lines) box, NURBS, point-to-point, and edge modeling just to name a few. T

                      The most important thing to have when modeling a complex object is as much reference material as possible. he most accurate modeling method is with blueprints, but sometimes all you're going to have a photos. A good model can easily take months of hard work to produce. Especially where organic shapes are concerned, it isn't enough to create the shape, but smooth poly flow that creates accurate geometry and lends itself well to 3D printing should be the goal. If a model containing a lot of compound curves has insufficient polys, the resulting 3D printed model will contain unsightly faceting requiring a lot of manual effort to hide before painting.

                      Generally, 3D modeling style is only taught in formal classes. It is very difficult to learn style on one's own unless you're one of those very rare, gifted individuals or have access to a lot of feedback. The majority of modelers are left to try for an accurate shape with varying results.

                      For simple models and creating holes in bulkheads, this is fine; but if you want to model something with more compound curves, --like a Whiskey Long Bin from scratch, organic modeling techniques are the way to go.

                      It was interesting to note how many students dropped out of the modeling class I attended at Universal Studios. Out of the 31 that showed up full of enthusiasm on the first day, there were 15 left two weeks later and 12 after three months. I asked the Director if this was a normal attrition rate and he said it was fairly typical. Apparently most of the students didn't expect it would require so much work. And it work it was. For every hour in class, there was at least two hours of homework. Weekends were spent wrestling polys for Monday presentation deadlines.

                      Luckily, I wasn't there to learn special effects for working in film or TV - I had an engineering job and my company paid my way to add a new capability to our service portfolio. I threw myself into it and learned as much as I could in the six months I spent there, living in a hotel with nothing to do but study.

                      Once the class was over and I returned to work, the real learning began. Spending 12-15 hours a day for the first year, I was able to double my speed about every three months. Speed and accuracy are the keys to becoming an efficient modeler. It takes a tremendous amount of perseverance and practice to get to the point where you have the confidence to tackle anything.

                      The tricks that work for me are:
                      1. Set realistic deadlines.
                      2. Build one section at a time and stick with it.
                      3. Save, save, save! There are few things more depressing when modeling that to suffer a crash and have to redo an hour's worth of work. I save my files every three to five minutes religiously.
                      4. Keep learning new ways to use old tools.
                      5. Take frequent breaks.
                      6. Use symmetry and mirroring to reduce the workload whenever possible.
                      7. Challenge yourself to trying new techniques.

                      During this holiday where I'm stuck inside, I'm working on a submarine at the moment and have multiple versions, borrowing parts from a master to save time as I modify each version. One is for a static display model and the others will be optimized for 3D printing.

                      For software. I use Lightwave3D. It was the first commercial software for "regular" folks, introduced 25 years ago on the Amiga. It has been used on numerous award-winning movies and TV shows since it is also an animation program. I have access to plenty of high-end CAD software like SolidWorks and ProE, but can create faster with just as much accuracy using Lightwave. Plus, I can texture, light and animate with a degree of realism that CAD programs can't touch.

                      I've attached a couple of wire renders from an artist who is much better than I when it comes to sub-D modeling (where the mesh is manipulated like a piece of clay to get smooth, rounded faces with a minimal number of polys.) Notice how the polys (all quads) flow in uniform directions, which blend and contribute to the overall organic shape. STLs use triangles (3-sided polys) which are nothing more than sub-divided quads (four-sided polys.) I model in quads and then turn the mesh into triangles before outputting as an STL for 3D printing.

                      If you have any modeling questions, chime in, and I'll offer suggestions if possible.

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	SU-57 Cockpit.jpg Views:	0 Size:	70.1 KB ID:	146202
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by CC Clarke; 12-28-2020, 08:58 AM. Reason: Vernacular reptology!

                      Comment

                      • Captain Anblasen
                        Ensign
                        • Jan 2021
                        • 1

                        #26
                        I have had other companies 3d print some sculptures. The quality of the 3d prints was exceptional, I had no surface or printing waves to sand down. Of course these prints were made by a high end printer some years ago. Now that the quality of printers seem to be much better and the cost lowering, I am thinking of investing in my own 3d printer and was wondering what sort of quality I can expect from say an Elegoo mars Pro 2 for example? I assume if you are making small scale parts I assume there is little to no sanding or finishing of the printed surface.

                        Comment

                        • SubDude
                          Captain
                          • Dec 2019
                          • 803

                          #27
                          My first full on Fusion 360 project. Took me about 5 days and 2 versions but is now printing very nicely on my Ender 3 Pro using ASA filament. It's my take on a 1/72nd scale Columbia class. Will be 93" long with just over a 7" beam. I sat down and forced myself to learn what I did. At times it was very frustrating but I kept going. Also had some help along the way. I use Simplify 3D for my slicing software. My printer has been bullet proof aside from an issue where the wire inside the insulation of the power cable to the bed heater fatigued and broke. Took me two weeks to figure that one out but it is back up and running full bore. I just bought an Ender 5 Plus and will be bringing it online soon. Much bigger build volume so I could easily do a 1/48th Ohio now if I want but it will first be printing a large Seehund for a buddy of mine.

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                          Last edited by SubDude; 01-06-2021, 05:57 PM.

                          Comment

                          • rwtdiver
                            Vice Admiral
                            • Feb 2019
                            • 1768

                            #28
                            Originally posted by RCJetDude
                            My first full on Fusion 360 project. Took me about 5 days and 2 versions but is now printing very nicely on my Ender 3 Pro using ASA filament. It's my take on a 1/72nd scale Columbia class. Will be 93" long with just over a 7" beam. I sat down and forced myself to learn what I did. At times it was very frustrating but I kept going. Also had some help along the way. I use Simplify 3D for my slicing software. My printer has been bullet proof aside from an issue where the wire inside the insulation of the power cable to the bed heater fatigued and broke. Took me two weeks to figure that one out but it is back up and running full bore. I just bought an Ender 5 Plus and will be bringing it online soon. Much bigger build volume so I could easily do a 1/48th Ohio now if I want but it will first be printing a large Seehund for a buddy of mine.

                            Click image for larger version Name:	20210106_163144_copy_1612x1209.jpg Views:	0 Size:	42.0 KB ID:	146446
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                            Steve!

                            Your Ender 3 Pro looks like it really does some great printing. Another big Columbia class boat! I spent $150.00 about 8 years ago on Simplify 3D slicing software, that was the best $150.00 I have ever spent!
                            Great software.

                            Rob
                            "Firemen can stand the heat"

                            Comment

                            • CC Clarke
                              Lieutenant Commander
                              • Aug 2020
                              • 239

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Captain Anblasen
                              I have had other companies 3d print some sculptures. The quality of the 3d prints was exceptional, I had no surface or printing waves to sand down. Of course these prints were made by a high end printer some years ago. Now that the quality of printers seem to be much better and the cost lowering, I am thinking of investing in my own 3d printer and was wondering what sort of quality I can expect from say an Elegoo mars Pro 2 for example? I assume if you are making small scale parts I assume there is little to no sanding or finishing of the printed surface.
                              Just to keep this so people who aren't printer-heavy can follow along better, you're discussing a resin printer, which is a lot different than an FDM printer. Resin printing has pros and cons, but can yield awesome-looking parts at a fraction of the price of the more expensive FDM printers (>$1000.) They require optimal orientation of the parts and placement of the supports for best results. There are a lot of very good YouTube videos of techniques using Chitubox (a common resin slicer) available.

                              I'm leaning toward a $350 Pfrozen Mini 4K to compliment my FDM printer work at the moment.

                              CC

                              Comment

                              • CC Clarke
                                Lieutenant Commander
                                • Aug 2020
                                • 239

                                #30
                                [QUOTE=RCJetDude;n146445]My first full on Fusion 360 project. Took me about 5 days and 2 versions but is now printing very nicely on my Ender 3 Pro using ASA filament. It's my take on a 1/72nd scale Columbia class. Will be 93" long with just over a 7" beam. I sat down and forced myself to learn what I did. At times it was very frustrating but I kept going. Also had some help along the way. I use Simplify 3D for my slicing software. My printer has been bullet proof aside from an issue where the wire inside the insulation of the power cable to the bed heater fatigued and broke. Took me two weeks to figure that one out but it is back up and running full bore. I just bought an Ender 5 Plus and will be bringing it online soon. Much bigger build volume so I could easily do a 1/48th Ohio now if I want but it will first be printing a large Seehund for a buddy of mine.

                                The Ender 5 is a nice machine, and your current Columbia print looks like a lot of fun. My only suggestion for improvement would be to increase the side count on the hull to minimize the faceting. It looks like you've got around 48 sides @ 3-4 mm thickness; I like to use 120 sides which drastically reduces the amount of post-sanding required. The size of this model would need a lot of laborious sanding!

                                I finally used some XTC-3D epoxy coating last week and highly recommend it. A couple of very thin coats will completely fill in FDM layer lines, (but isn't going to fix broad, visible faceting.) After that, very light sanding preps the surface for primer.

                                I've attached a freshly-printed and coated screw for comparison:

                                Click image for larger version

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ID:	146452

                                I look forward to seeing your finished result!

                                CC

                                Last edited by CC Clarke; 01-06-2021, 09:38 PM.

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