Bronco 1:35 Type XXIII RC Build/ Conversion

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  • He Who Shall Not Be Named
    Moderator
    • Aug 2008
    • 12200

    Originally posted by goshawk823
    Something David taught me long ago when I built my OTW Type XXIII. The waterline scum line looks better when you use a fan blender brush with the scum color loaded onto it, and you draw downwards from the scum line and you do it in different lengths as you work your way across the hull.
    One other thing he taught me for this specific boat…most XXIIIs were operating in cold water areas. The scum line was probably more beige/brown with little green.

    Just adding something to consider as you finish your weathering.

    Hope that was OK to add onto what David is teaching…
    Hell yah, Sam! I don't have exclusive rights to any of this stuff. I am and always will be a student of the Craft; I learn as well as teach. Let's all (those of us with demonstrated skills) keep the ball in play!

    David
    Who is John Galt?

    Comment

    • He Who Shall Not Be Named
      Moderator
      • Aug 2008
      • 12200

      (still working on that 'rust' tutorial -- tomorrow, hopefully).
      Who is John Galt?

      Comment

      • goshawk823
        Lieutenant Commander
        • Oct 2010
        • 208

        Originally posted by biggsgolf

        Thanks so much! The cold water makes so much sense, I had wondered about that. I am learning and appreciate the help!
        Anytime!
        (I’d do a little green scum around the diesel exhaust.)

        Comment

        • biggsgolf
          Captain
          • Jan 2020
          • 704

          Originally posted by goshawk823

          Anytime!
          (I’d do a little green scum around the diesel exhaust.)
          ok, I am ignorant....... is this the diesel exhaust? Click image for larger version

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          • He Who Shall Not Be Named
            Moderator
            • Aug 2008
            • 12200

            Originally posted by biggsgolf

            ok, I am ignorant....... is this the diesel exhaust? Click image for larger version

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            That's the diesel exhaust fairing. The exhaust proper is the 'finger' looking discharge, just below the waterline.
            Who is John Galt?

            Comment

            • DrSchmidt
              Captain
              • Apr 2014
              • 903

              The diesel exhaust gases passed through the diesel head valve into a muffler and from there into the exhasut tubes on port, that were hidden under the fairing, like David pointed out quite correctly... Click image for larger version

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              • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                Moderator
                • Aug 2008
                • 12200

                Originally posted by biggsgolf
                So, I need specifics on making authentic looking rust. I am not in the least an artist, I tried Bob's Abteilung 502 Industrial Earth and Brown Wash, could not get it to cure. Maybe use Abteilung Fast dry thinner? Current application is Tamiya Weathering Master Rust. Specifics would be appreciated!
                REPRESENTING IRON RUST ON SUBMARINE MODELS


                I served aboard both diesel and nuclear powered American submarines as a Torpedoman. As such, me and my fellow weaponeers were as close to being a boats 'Boatswain's Mate' as could be found among ships company. Hence, we TM's were in charge of 'deck' – hull preservation above waterline was a significant fraction of the things we did in port. I know corrosion! I know what spot and running rust look like! Me and my fellow troglodytes were grinding, chipping, hammering, painting fools!

                Peace-time boats (regardless of nationality or climate) have the luxury of time and facilities – you won't find much rust atop one of today's boats. But, in times of quick turn-around, when job-one was getting the boat ready for another sortie, preservation took a back seat to weapons handling and the many other tasks required to make the boat ready for patrol.

                Such was the case with the German Type-23's – little coastal submarines that had to be worked up, commissioned and sent ... without delay... to the Front – explaining the sorry state of their appearance in the few photos we have of operational units employed at wars end. Many of these units evidenced rust on their above waterline portions.

                The task for the model kit assembler is to represent the rust, deck scuffing, grime streaking, verdigris, oil runs, and marine growth in a convincing manner.

                Today's submarines – even the poorly maintain former Soviet submarine – don't evidence much rust at all. So this discussion, dealing with rust, is pretty much confined to world war era submarine crews who had more pressing concerns than making the boat look sharp for the Commodore or his staff.

                What you'll see in the form of 'weathering' on today's submarines will be light colored (variations on gray) streaking down the sides of the hull and running down from all vertical structures. Just follow the gravity line to know the orientation of such streaking, as demonstrated below.



                Though in miserable shape (by Western standards), there is little rust to be seen on this KILO. None below waterline, and only a smidgen around the upper torpedo tube shutter doors, and between safety-tracks and deck.

                Keep this in mind: NO EVIDENCE OF OXIDIZED IRON BEARING METALS BELOW THE WATERLINE!!!



                After assembling my Bronco 1/35th scale Type-23 kit I elected to paint and weather the thing as though it was still in work-up, before going out on war-patrols – the yellow bands on the sail denoting this sub as a unit still in the training phase. However, this new unit, only weeks or months out of the building ways, has already started to show a disregard for care of the paint-work. Rust is the rule of the day here. Rust your model submarine with a bit of forethought and study of boats of the time, place, and circumstances that inform the back-story of your display.



                What on a Type-23 would evidence rust?

                Rust that originates at weld-beads, between lapped joined plating, and rust originating at any surface featuring a sharp edge (limber holes, breakwaters, ladder rungs, fasteners, deck foundations, etc.).



                Research. Research... Research!

                The quality of any physical display – and I'm talking miniatures representing real or imagined prototypes – is a consequence of its physical adherence to the original. Is its color, sheen, and representation of weathering a faithful copy of the original i.e., does the model look like the prototype in shape and finish?



                The burden on the model-builder/kit-assembler is to KNOW THE PROTOTYPE! Here you see just a small sampling of the documentation I've gathered and arrayed near a work-station.

                Don't wing it... KNOW it! Become aware of the 'look' of your subject.



                The Great photo-real Artist worked by studying a subject while it/they were positioned in close proximity to the canvas/slab of marble/hunk of clay. Same goes for your work as you paint and weather your toy submarine.



                Less is more, the golden rule of weathering, particularly when applying rust. Can you find the 'rust' in this picture? This display suggests rust – it does not hit you over the head with the presence of rust.



                The prominent weathering you see on the above waterline structures is streaking. Not rusting!!!!






                A poor rusting job. Wrong subject for the process. And a process poorly applied.



                Rust originates where paint and preservative (red-lead) has been worn away. This H-bollard demonstrates the proper use of 'rusting'. The oxidation is happening where bare iron bearing metal is exposed to the elements through rough use.



                No weathering or markings are applied until the entire display is given a thick clear-coat. This affords the opportunity of 'erasing' mistakes with polish or sand-paper should you err during weathering and/or markings work. The clear coat is a barrier between paint and weathering agents.



                First, highlight all creasing and deep relief areas of the models surface with a well thinned artist-oil black wash. Cut the paint with turpentine – it's chemically benign and will not react with the paint or clear-coat.

                Here's how I do it:










                Before doing any fancy weathering work, first practice the use of your mediums and means of application on a test-article.



                Once you become confident in your ability, commence hostilities on the display...







                I went over-kill on the rust application – reasoning that by getting rust into each and every crevasse was more important than being careful with the application. Easier to get all the desired rust in place and abrade off the excess than to get crazy with precise application.



                Excess rust would be scrubbed away with a scouring powder slurry, steel wool, 3M abrasive pad, and course polishing compound. Another abrading tool is a fiberglass 'eraser brush' – that item with the red handle to the right. This is where that clear-coat comes in – its the barrier that keeps you from digging into the paint job.









                WA-la! Rust ONLY where I want it.



                Alternative mediums used to represent rust include linseed oil based 'artist paint', water soluble acrylic paint, ground chalks, smear crayons, color pencils and pens, and lipstick.




                Who is John Galt?

                Comment

                • biggsgolf
                  Captain
                  • Jan 2020
                  • 704

                  Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named
                  REPRESENTING IRON RUST ON SUBMARINE MODELS


                  I served aboard both diesel and nuclear powered American submarines as a Torpedoman. As such, me and my fellow weaponeers were as close to being a boats 'Boatswain's Mate' as could be found among ships company. Hence, we TM's were in charge of 'deck' – hull preservation above waterline was a significant fraction of the things we did in port. I know corrosion! I know what spot and running rust look like! Me and my fellow troglodytes were grinding, chipping, hammering, painting fools!

                  Peace-time boats (regardless of nationality or climate) have the luxury of time and facilities – you won't find much rust atop one of today's boats. But, in times of quick turn-around, when job-one was getting the boat ready for another sortie, preservation took a back seat to weapons handling and the many other tasks required to make the boat ready for patrol.

                  Such was the case with the German Type-23's – little coastal submarines that had to be worked up, commissioned and sent ... without delay... to the Front – explaining the sorry state of their appearance in the few photos we have of operational units employed at wars end. Many of these units evidenced rust on their above waterline portions.

                  The task for the model kit assembler is to represent the rust, deck scuffing, grime streaking, verdigris, oil runs, and marine growth in a convincing manner.

                  Today's submarines – even the poorly maintain former Soviet submarine – don't evidence much rust at all. So this discussion, dealing with rust, is pretty much confined to world war era submarine crews who had more pressing concerns than making the boat look sharp for the Commodore or his staff.

                  What you'll see in the form of 'weathering' on today's submarines will be light colored (variations on gray) streaking down the sides of the hull and running down from all vertical structures. Just follow the gravity line to know the orientation of such streaking, as demonstrated below.



                  Though in miserable shape (by Western standards), there is little rust to be seen on this KILO. None below waterline, and only a smidgen around the upper torpedo tube shutter doors, and between safety-tracks and deck.

                  Keep this in mind: NO EVIDENCE OF OXIDIZED IRON BEARING METALS BELOW THE WATERLINE!!!



                  After assembling my Bronco 1/35th scale Type-23 kit I elected to paint and weather the thing as though it was still in work-up, before going out on war-patrols – the yellow bands on the sail denoting this sub as a unit still in the training phase. However, this new unit, only weeks or months out of the building ways, has already started to show a disregard for care of the paint-work. Rust is the rule of the day here. Rust your model submarine with a bit of forethought and study of boats of the time, place, and circumstances that inform the back-story of your display.



                  What on a Type-23 would evidence rust?

                  Rust that originates at weld-beads, between lapped joined plating, and rust originating at any surface featuring a sharp edge (limber holes, breakwaters, ladder rungs, fasteners, deck foundations, etc.).



                  Research. Research... Research!

                  The quality of any physical display – and I'm talking miniatures representing real or imagined prototypes – is a consequence of its physical adherence to the original. Is its color, sheen, and representation of weathering a faithful copy of the original i.e., does the model look like the prototype in shape and finish?



                  The burden on the model-builder/kit-assembler is to KNOW THE PROTOTYPE! Here you see just a small sampling of the documentation I've gathered and arrayed near a work-station.

                  Don't wing it... KNOW it! Become aware of the 'look' of your subject.



                  The Great photo-real Artist worked by studying a subject while it/they were positioned in close proximity to the canvas/slab of marble/hunk of clay. Same goes for your work as you paint and weather your toy submarine.



                  Less is more, the golden rule of weathering, particularly when applying rust. Can you find the 'rust' in this picture? This display suggests rust – it does not hit you over the head with the presence of rust.



                  The prominent weathering you see on the above waterline structures is streaking. Not rusting!!!!






                  A poor rusting job. Wrong subject for the process. And a process poorly applied.



                  Rust originates where paint and preservative (red-lead) has been worn away. This H-bollard demonstrates the proper use of 'rusting'. The oxidation is happening where bare iron bearing metal is exposed to the elements through rough use.



                  No weathering or markings are applied until the entire display is given a thick clear-coat. This affords the opportunity of 'erasing' mistakes with polish or sand-paper should you err during weathering and/or markings work. The clear coat is a barrier between paint and weathering agents.



                  First, highlight all creasing and deep relief areas of the models surface with a well thinned artist-oil black wash. Cut the paint with turpentine – it's chemically benign and will not react with the paint or clear-coat.

                  Here's how I do it:










                  Before doing any fancy weathering work, first practice the use of your mediums and means of application on a test-article.



                  Once you become confident in your ability, commence hostilities on the display...







                  I went over-kill on the rust application – reasoning that by getting rust into each and every crevasse was more important than being careful with the application. Easier to get all the desired rust in place and abrade off the excess than to get crazy with precise application.



                  Excess rust would be scrubbed away with a scouring powder slurry, steel wool, 3M abrasive pad, and course polishing compound. Another abrading tool is a fiberglass 'eraser brush' – that item with the red handle to the right. This is where that clear-coat comes in – its the barrier that keeps you from digging into the paint job.









                  WA-la! Rust ONLY where I want it.



                  Alternative mediums used to represent rust include linseed oil based 'artist paint', water soluble acrylic paint, ground chalks, smear crayons, color pencils and pens, and lipstick.




                  You have been an incredible mentor and role model for me, and I am so thankful for your guidance!​ I will carefully prepare and present my inevitable questions to you Sir!

                  Comment

                  • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                    Moderator
                    • Aug 2008
                    • 12200

                    Originally posted by biggsgolf

                    You have been an incredible mentor and role model for me, and I am so thankful for your guidance!​ I will carefully prepare and present my inevitable questions to you Sir!
                    Your very kind. Yes. Yes. I am wonderful, ain't I?
                    Who is John Galt?

                    Comment

                    • biggsgolf
                      Captain
                      • Jan 2020
                      • 704

                      Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named

                      Your very kind. Yes. Yes. I am wonderful, ain't I?
                      lol! yes, yes you are....... should I post questions here or under Todays work?

                      Comment

                      • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                        Moderator
                        • Aug 2008
                        • 12200

                        Originally posted by biggsgolf

                        lol! yes, yes you are....... should I post questions here or under Todays work?
                        Let's keep the gabfest here -- where this thread serves as a touchstone for those wishing to assemble a credible display of the Bronco Type-23.

                        The horror continues!

                        David
                        The Wonderful, Magnificent...Wizard of...
                        Who is John Galt?

                        Comment

                        • biggsgolf
                          Captain
                          • Jan 2020
                          • 704

                          Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named

                          Your very kind. Yes. Yes. I am wonderful, ain't I?
                          Is this Majestic Touch wash black? If so, I cannot find it, do you know where you got it from or an alternative?
                          Click image for larger version

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                          • biggsgolf
                            Captain
                            • Jan 2020
                            • 704

                            Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named

                            Your very kind. Yes. Yes. I am wonderful, ain't I?
                            Are you using anything on the cotton or paper towel to remove excess? Are you removing all wash except the weld lines?
                            Click image for larger version

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                            • biggsgolf
                              Captain
                              • Jan 2020
                              • 704

                              Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named

                              Your very kind. Yes. Yes. I am wonderful, ain't I?
                              What's happening here? Is this before the black wash?
                              Click image for larger version

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                              • biggsgolf
                                Captain
                                • Jan 2020
                                • 704

                                Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named

                                Your very kind. Yes. Yes. I am wonderful, ain't I?
                                What are these mediums and how are they used?
                                Click image for larger version

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