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Just a quick note of thanks to all you bums -- really good stuff here. Much appreciated. Stay tuned.
David
David
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Who is John Galt? -
How about a contest! Build a model buck to be vacformed and send it in to Caswell for a one time
try. How much does a sheet of plastic cost? It could be the entry fee cost and defray some of the
cost. Model must have room for such and such subdriver.
How about a vacform of a waterline model of X-1, M-1, ... You know the ones with big guns on deck.
How about a steampunk model with many rivets.
You know most of us are cheap model collectors. Make the brand line "Offscale Models"! (if the name is available)
"Get your New-and-improved Offscale Astute submarine model!"Last edited by Scott T; 04-20-2013, 12:46 PM.Comment
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They have an M1 already- how many have you sold, one maybe two? Waste of time building stuff like that if you're after a volume seller, and if you're vac-forming I would think that is exactly what you're aiming for.
You also need to build in a specific way for a vac form tool, or make an intermediate mould and cast from that, because of the forces involved, which are considerable. No use making a flimsy foam and filler model and expecting that to take the pressure of the process.Comment
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Andy is correct on both counts, Scott: Esoteric subjects don't sell, and the process involves robust, well engineered tooling.
This will not be a you-kill-it-we-cook-it type operation, Scott. Part fabrication will not drape hot plastic over a puck/buck/plug/positive/pattern/form (so, so many terms for the same thing bantered about over the years) to produce the vacuformed parts -- we'll be using a proper female mold. That type tool not only captures the true, uniform external geometry of the subject, but also is capable of capturing the detailing imparted on the surface of the master, providing there is shallow right-angle draft and no negative draft.
And, as Andy pointed out, the forces are high: the inverse square law applies to the process -- for a given differential pressure, increasing the area of the work one unit and you've increased, by a factor of four, the total pressure applied to the tool. I've crushed poorly designed tools. Add to that dose of reality the considerable heat captured by a puck or mold during a production run and you find that unless you either chose the right material or provided regenerative cooling, the puck or tool will fail.
Any dope can heat-form a thermoplastic to assume a shape. Only an expert can produce the tool that will survive industrial use.
This means creation of a detailed master (my strong suit), then creation of a metal filled resin tool (another specialty of mine) into which the hot plastic sheet will be pulled.
Bottom line: Vacuforming is a quick and cheap process. However the machine (and we ain't talking Mom's kitchen oven here!) is terribly expensive (a proper production machine like the one Mike just purchased and got working, to the amazement of his crew); the tools are labor intensive and require a skilled hand to design and fabricate; and the finished parts require exceptional skill on the part of the customer to trim out and fit. The payoff to the initial expense of the infrastructure --vacuforming machine, masters, tools, production training, etc. -- is the ability to produce pieces from cheap material, with minimal labor (skill level is low and cycle time is quick), and the ability to produce hundreds of units per day with little machine or tool depreciation.Who is John Galt?Comment
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Cool beans!
So when is that diving canoe kit hitting the market? It's perfect in 1:6 scale for my old GI Joe frogman. :wink:Attached FilesComment
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... and since I'm back into figure work I can provide with the kit a commando with removable head! Those Japanese were savage little ****s!
Seriously though ... This is a great idea, Chuck: only four channels, ballast tank, stern planes, rudder, and throttle. You have given me something to dig into. As usual, it's guys like you, Mark, and Andy who turn up the 'good stuff'.Last edited by He Who Shall Not Be Named; 04-22-2013, 08:26 PM.Who is John Galt?Comment
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Have a look from 3:32 onward.
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An argument for not doing this as a kit: not that it had a break-down, just that it is a most unatractive subject and a ***** under the water. Thanks for showing us this. Anyone want to argue with my thoughts here? I'm open to comment and suggestions.
Thanks, Andy.Who is John Galt?Comment
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Argue? No. Disagree? Yes. The same reasons you give for not doing the sub mentioned, I would say for the underwater canoe. I do not see anything ominous about it, attractive about it, and question the handling of it. It looks like a toy a GI Joe would go in. The point of the kit you are coming up with is to be an easy beginner sub yes? What do a lot of beginners want to build for their first sub? Something that looks cool, resembles something real, and has the appearance of having some teeth. I would add, unfortunately, easy to build and run. All too often I see beginners wanting the world in their sub and ultimately fail from frustration, but a kit that they can get under their belt will hook them into falling in love with this hobby (or whatever you want to call this insanity we do). So do a real sub (not an underwater sled) or create one that will have an ominous look that modules can be added to it like a torpedo module, electronics module, working mast module, etc.If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.Comment
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Yes 1/6th scale- known as 'Action man' in the UK.
The 'Sleeping beauty' in the clip was smaller scale, i think about 1/8th. it was later improved by fitting front hydroplanes, something the prototypes had retrofitted too.Comment
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And I just had a very nice e-mail exchange with Quentin Rees, author of Cockelshell Canoes (WW2 BMC), and likely the most knowledgble guy in the world on the subject. All this from a steer I got from Chuck Miller. Something might come of all this yet. Thanks, guys.
DavidWho is John Galt?Comment
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This is why I like thinking outside the box. Whether or not anything comes of it, that's debatable but there are other chariots worth considering that might of greater interest & not just to the RC sub community.
As I mentioned in my email, something like this would sell with toy figure fans, especially those grown up "kids" who value scale collectables & have the money to invest. Its a big market worldwide, far larger than model subs. Do a search for 1:6 military collectables & you'll see what I mean.Last edited by herrmill; 04-24-2013, 02:02 AM. Reason: Multi-tasking under the influence of too much caffeine.Comment
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Figure fans? I still have a GI Joe in the box with his sargeant stripes, still on the peel off paper. I am not speaking from any knowledge or insight other than my guts. You guys might be onto something, it just does not appeal to me. I do believe you, there are many collectors, so we will see and it will be fun to watch the build. Look forward to learning more.If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.Comment
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A Belgian modeller brought along a slew of interesting looking subs to a Dive-in a back in 2010. One of them was a model of the Popular mechanics sub (Plans are online). You can see this from 11:16. I had a turn at the sticks, and it was extremely agile and easy to drive. He has a bunch of these models in various scales, and he told me there was some discussion with Graupner about kitting it, but clearly nothing ever came of it.
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