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Hybrid Ballast Tank/Piston System

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Bob Gato View Post
    You are "out of control", my friend-but your robot is not! Very impressive!
    Thanks Bud!

    I can’t take all the credit though. The robot is a kit made for experimenting and learning. I just made a number of small modifications to the Arduino code it uses to make it a bit more stable.

    Comment


    • #92
      While progress is being made and posted at each of the far edges of this forum, I am still in the trenches of writing the code that will get this hybrid ballast test platform up and running. So far the unit is completely controllable from the manual transmitter inputs.

      Working out the auto sensor based inputs now. Like dive on a 0 degree keel or minus or plus degree keel stetting. This sets up basic trimming function base lines. Is the boat loaded or unloaded? Sets up the boats attitude at each condition. It’s a deep hole of despair, but one I hope to conquer soon.

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      • #93
        You are not forgotten! In fact, I look forward to your posts. You are an innovator and wonderfully creative.
        If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by trout View Post
          You are not forgotten! In fact, I look forward to your posts. You are an innovator and wonderfully creative.
          Thanks Tom!

          I’m just grumbling really. Feel that I’ve been staring at the computer screen for far too many hours, for far too many days working through writing each block of code for this dang project. I’d rather be using the time building something. But I dug this hole so I’m going to see it through.

          Good news though. I’ve finally uploaded the latest code to the hybrid WTC project that includes the auto leveling trim features using the gyro data. Here’s a quick and dirty video I just took with the gyro removed from the rear upper equipment shelf. The gyro is mounted on a breadboard while the forward and rear equipment racks and pistons are placed side by side on the bench. During the video I make pitch adjustments to the breadboard which the effects are shown in each of the piston’s travel when filling or emptying. Normally the input and effects are smoother when everything is assembled because of the direct feedback to the gyro.

          https://youtu.be/pfLRpzbLxK4

          The auto leveling function is currently only active and used for setting up the initial static dived trim and the initial static surfaced trim. The pitch can be overridden from 0 degrees (or even keel) to 1 degree increments up to + 30 degree up bow pitch or to - 30 degrees down bow pitch. Each of these trimmed states are then recorded and the data is then applied to a selectable function on the transmitter named ballast routine. Ballast routine when selected is a automatic dive or surface routine when used. Meaning it takes the boat down to the depth and pitch previously recorded in the dived state or brings the boat back to the surfaced trim and pitch previously recorded in the surfaced state. These automatic functions are accomplished by moving the pistons to the recorded distances away from the laser sensors taken during the initial dived and surfaced trimming. Hope all this junk makes sense. I may need to ask one of you how the hell this thing works!

          Nick

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          • #95
            I am watching boring routine, simple ho-hum ...from the future. This is how ALL model subs will operate maybe 8-10 years from now...so us ''kiddies'' should sit and pay attention!! "Pure Magic"

            Thanks Nick!-BG
            Last edited by Bob Gato; 04-30-2021, 05:39 AM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Bob Gato View Post
              I am watching boring routine, simple ho-hum ...from the future. This is how ALL model subs will operate maybe 8-10 years from now...so us ''kiddies'' should sit and pay attention!! "Pure Magic"

              Thanks Nick!-BG
              Thanks BG.

              Here is a quick and badly done more informative video update on how the system works as of today. Sorry, I hate having to talk on camera.

              https://youtu.be/ndDZtuh0jGQ

              Nick

              Comment


              • #97
                Another milestone achieved today with the development of the program code that operates the system. Yesterday I took a short and poorly done video explaining the manual operation of the piston trim tanks and attempted to explain the setting up of the recorded submerged and surfaced trimmed set points for piston trim tanks Using the record function.

                In the video I mentioned recording the distance of each trim piston’s distance from the sensor in either submerged or surfaced trim mode. Today, with the help of my lovely wife, we were able to complete the part of the program that takes the previously recorded trim tank distances and apply them to the automatic surface or submerge routines.

                Once we had the trim tanks reliably and repeatability moving to their recorded distances in auto mode, the next step was bringing the main central ballast tank functions into the automatic ballast routine program.

                Very quickly we were able to get the timing and logic of controlling the main ballast tank’s surfaced and submerged conditions worked into the trim tanks program logic.

                The last step in completing the program is adding a variable percentage delay to the forward trim tanks movement before the stern trim tank starts to move. This is to allow a bow up or bow down pitch when surfacing or submerging statically.

                Once the program is finished I can start moving on to actually testing the WTC in the tank and adjustIng the gyro pitch PID values.

                This system is a different way of doing things from what has been done to date. I get it if you don’t like it or agree with it. I’m just exploring the what else. The boat launches both gas and electric torpedoes which have their own effects on trimming. This alone sets up the need for a variable set trim state in both submerged and surfaced settlings.

                If the work I keep posting is not of interest to the the group I will gladly stop sharing.

                nick



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                • #98
                  Nick,


                  Oh, hell no. DO NOT STOP. I think what you're doing is simply so far beyond the realm of we mortals that all we can do is sit back in awe and hope that the end product will somehow allow us to understand how all this work will actually function in a working cylinder.

                  This is amazing stuff. Please continue!

                  Bob

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Ditto what Bob said. Nick, you are pushing the boundaries and I am just learning from you.
                    If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.

                    Comment


                    • Okay thanks guys. I’ll keep the updates coming then.

                      Topics like these can start out interesting but can quickly become a storage space waste on the servers if the content isn’t useful to the group.

                      It will be interesting to see how this dumb thing works in the water once it is finally at that point. I have to say this project has been seriously kicking me in my backside trying to develop it as best I can.

                      The next boat build after this project will be a Bronco type XXIII and use by far one of my favorite ballast systems, which is David’s Snort design. That project will be using a standard 2 1/2” MSD I got from Bob a while back.

                      Nick


                      Comment


                      • Nick,

                        Please keep it coming! Before I got into submarines, I was totally involved with GPS system in my VTOL aircraft!

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                        Having to monitor stability along with vertical and horizontal flight system made it impossible without GPS system! I am still really new at sub driver ballast system set ups, but with each new sub I build I am getting better! But I would really like to have a set up as nice as yours! Please keep it coming! The video was very good! It really showed how the GPS system was working to keep the boat level! Great stuff!!!

                        Rob
                        "Firemen can stand the heat"

                        Comment


                        • There is no crying in baseball... there is no GPS in submarines. Rob- Maybe I misunderstood the above post-but I believe GPS signals won't penetrate water. That was basically controlled using Gyros (more like INS from the not too old days of flying)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bob Gato View Post
                            There is no crying in baseball... there is no GPS in submarines. Rob- Maybe I misunderstood the above post-but I believe GPS signals won't penetrate water. That was basically controlled using Gyros (more like INS from the not too old days of flying)
                            Hi Bob,

                            I here what you are saying! And you are correct! I think what I trying to relate to was, Nick use of electronics to achieve auto leveling in his sub was to a certain extent similar to GPS in quadcopter or VTOL flight system to hold the aircraft in a stable attitude! I realize they are two different types of systems.

                            Rob
                            "Firemen can stand the heat"

                            Comment


                            • Thank you Rob,

                              The tech available to the flight hobby mostly translates into the sub hobby but BG is correct, the GPS signals will not penetrate water. This boat that I’m working on did have a 9 DoF sensor on board so pitch, roll and yaw was accurate and recorded, but in the end I wound up using a simpler 6 DoF sensor and mainly use the x axis for tracking the pitch. Roll or (y axis) is used but only to correct the pitch axis with a Euler formula.

                              A set up like this does add some trim tweaking capabilities outside of the initial add lead and add foam to get the boat trimmed correctly but it is also a huge added complication that is not necessary for a typical build.

                              Really the only reason I Initially pursued the building and testing of a system like this was due to the final ballast differences between loading the forward and aft torpedo tubes with either electric or gas weapons as each of live and loaded weapons into the tubes would have a different effect in final trims.

                              Proven systems like the snort or SAS are rock solid and best in my opinion and that’s why my next build will be those methods. This build is an odd monkey that I’m testing the what if boundaries.

                              Nick

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monahan Steam Models View Post
                                Thank you Rob,

                                The tech available to the flight hobby mostly translates into the sub hobby but BG is correct, the GPS signals will not penetrate water. This boat that I’m working on did have a 9 DoF sensor on board so pitch, roll and yaw was accurate and recorded, but in the end I wound up using a simpler 6 DoF sensor and mainly use the x axis for tracking the pitch. Roll or (y axis) is used but only to correct the pitch axis with a Euler formula.

                                A set up like this does add some trim tweaking capabilities outside of the initial add lead and add foam to get the boat trimmed correctly but it is also a huge added complication that is not necessary for a typical build.

                                Really the only reason I Initially pursued the building and testing of a system like this was due to the final ballast differences between loading the forward and aft torpedo tubes with either electric or gas weapons as each of live and loaded weapons into the tubes would have a different effect in final trims.

                                Proven systems like the snort or SAS are rock solid and best in my opinion and that’s why my next build will be those methods. This build is an odd monkey that I’m testing the what if boundaries.

                                Nick
                                Nick & Bob,

                                I may have not stated what I was trying to say clear enough! I realize GPS systems can not be used in a water environment. I was only trying to say that Nicks auto GYRO pitch control stabilization system for the submarine is similar in its function as a GPS (satellite) system holding a quadcopter or VTOL aircraft level at a stationary point! I realize they are two completely different type systems! But the concept of AUTO control is what I was trying to get across!

                                Final word on this subject! Nick I really like your design and the great concept you have built into your sub. I have not been able to fly any RC aircraft for years! I am totally into RC submarines, and I am trying to learn and understand all I can! Keep posting your build!

                                Rob,
                                "Firemen can stand the heat"

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