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  • Subculture
    Admiral
    • Feb 2009
    • 2119

    #16
    Historically speaking, people are quick to point out the problems, but few are willing to allocate the time and energy into creating solutions.

    I call it little Red Hen syndrome. I'm sure many are familiar with that little tale- who will help me sow the wheat, harvest and mill it, make the bread, bake it- no one. Who will help me eat the bread- everyone.

    So a few things that will help in my opinion. I write as an ex-member, so you can take or disregard what I write without any bias.

    1. Current membership list. I don't recall one being published in over a decade. Also helpful to know the skill set of members, and whether they'd be willing to offer their time in areas of expertise, either to help fellow members or the group as a whole. That will require members to complete some sort of form/questionnaire. Some may wish to do this, others won't. Carrot- perhaps offer a prize draw for those submitting a fully completed questionnaire, and call the draw once a certain number of members have joined. This would place a small cost on the group, but may improve engagement.

    2. A good look at the finances to see how resources can be allocated to improve the appeal of the group to current, past and prospective members. A group needs a bit of cash in reserve, but I don't think it needs $20k plus when things are where they are.

    3. Complete rebuild needed of the main website, which looks dull, like you're selling office furniture or something. and not much content. Forum needs to be fully open as exclusivity hasn't worked IMO, and the sections reduced to a bare minimum as many rarely if ever get posted to, and the whole page looks fragmented. Chapter, members only and vendor sections should be merged in with other sections, and every effort made to reduce the bloat in other sections. Think back to the early days of the forum, when there were half a dozen or so sections, all very active.

    4. Try and secure vendor discounts for members.

    5. If 3d printing is going to help the hobby grow consider creating a simple design that can be printed on an entry level machine e.g. Ender 3, that enables newcomers to get into the water without too much fuss. Something like the X1 sub would be a good candidate, a scale look but excellent shape with large control surfaces, no fussy details and will work well as a dynamic diver.

    6. Publish forward looking statements. What the goals are. Anyone who has tried to get anything done will appreciate some of the goals will fall short- I'd say if you can achieve fifty percent of your aims you'd be doing well- but a plan of action is needed if anything is to be done at all.

    Finally, you'll be very lucky indeed if you don't make some enemies along the way. It'll only take one or two people to make life difficult, as it takes less effort to foul things up than to put things right. Individuals can get spiteful and unpleasant in ways they wouldn't in their workplace for fear of losing their livelihood. Most will see reason and compromise, but some won't, and they're the tricky ones to handle.

    Comment

    • RCSubGuy
      Welcome to my underwater realm!
      • Aug 2009
      • 1768

      #17
      Andy,


      You're firing on all cylinders there, sir. What you've highlighted are all issues that we've identified and would like to work toward in the New Year.

      One of the first orders of business will be to create a prioritized list of opportunities, assign timelines and personnel, and bring visibility to the membership. This will drive accountability as well.

      I also concur with your statement about enemies. Progress is the nemesis of the status quo, and the status quo has been the organizational mantra for a very very long time. This tells me that most people are very happy with it. We will be shaking up that particular tree, and there are many that are not going to be happy about it (I mean, hey... who likes their coffee spilled in the morning, right!?). Unfortunately, they're going to need to A) fight the process and be grumpy until we're ousted, B) jump in and support us in our efforts, or C) go find another sandbox to play in.


      Bob

      Comment

      • QuarterMaster
        Rear Admiral
        • Sep 2015
        • 1194

        #18
        Originally posted by Subculture
        Historically speaking, people are quick to point out the problems, but few are willing to allocate the time and energy into creating solutions.

        I call it little Red Hen syndrome. I'm sure many are familiar with that little tale- who will help me sow the wheat, harvest and mill it, make the bread, bake it- no one. Who will help me eat the bread- everyone.

        So a few things that will help in my opinion. I write as an ex-member, so you can take or disregard what I write without any bias.

        1. Current membership list. I don't recall one being published in over a decade. Also helpful to know the skill set of members, and whether they'd be willing to offer their time in areas of expertise, either to help fellow members or the group as a whole. That will require members to complete some sort of form/questionnaire. Some may wish to do this, others won't. Carrot- perhaps offer a prize draw for those submitting a fully completed questionnaire, and call the draw once a certain number of members have joined. This would place a small cost on the group, but may improve engagement.

        2. A good look at the finances to see how resources can be allocated to improve the appeal of the group to current, past and prospective members. A group needs a bit of cash in reserve, but I don't think it needs $20k plus when things are where they are.

        3. Complete rebuild needed of the main website, which looks dull, like you're selling office furniture or something. and not much content. Forum needs to be fully open as exclusivity hasn't worked IMO, and the sections reduced to a bare minimum as many rarely if ever get posted to, and the whole page looks fragmented. Chapter, members only and vendor sections should be merged in with other sections, and every effort made to reduce the bloat in other sections. Think back to the early days of the forum, when there were half a dozen or so sections, all very active.

        4. Try and secure vendor discounts for members.

        5. If 3d printing is going to help the hobby grow consider creating a simple design that can be printed on an entry level machine e.g. Ender 3, that enables newcomers to get into the water without too much fuss. Something like the X1 sub would be a good candidate, a scale look but excellent shape with large control surfaces, no fussy details and will work well as a dynamic diver.

        6. Publish forward looking statements. What the goals are. Anyone who has tried to get anything done will appreciate some of the goals will fall short- I'd say if you can achieve fifty percent of your aims you'd be doing well- but a plan of action is needed if anything is to be done at all.

        Finally, you'll be very lucky indeed if you don't make some enemies along the way. It'll only take one or two people to make life difficult, as it takes less effort to foul things up than to put things right. Individuals can get spiteful and unpleasant in ways they wouldn't in their workplace for fear of losing their livelihood. Most will see reason and compromise, but some won't, and they're the tricky ones to handle.
        Wait until you see the hit list Bob, Tom and I put together...

        You but scratched the surface.

        Our goal, and forgive me if I speak out of turn Bob....and please correct.

        Is to bring back the SubCommittee as the PREMIER forum for ALL things related to the subject matter. For ALL Submarine Enthusiast's as it once was, not just RC. We also fill it with subject matter experts who may NOT be interested in RC. The place for research to use in conjunction with...

        The Nautilus Drydocks, the premier site for RC Submarine enthusiasts.

        BOTH can and should exist together in HARMONY working towards each skill skill set.

        As a Sub Simulation gamer, pin collector, static modeler, and to gain general research, I pay $$ for advanced access to the SC.

        As an RC enthusiast's, I come here for the latest how-to's, gear, tips and ideas.

        Am I wrong?
        v/r "Sub" Ed

        Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
        NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
        USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

        Comment

        • trout
          Admiral
          • Jul 2011
          • 3545

          #19
          Bob, Ed, and I want to see big changes, but we do not want to do this alone. We need your participation. We will be transparent, aggressive, and open to your ideas. Andy, you have brought up great points and I think you will see that happening in the coming years.

          An organization can die from a major blow, but it can also bleed to death by a thousand pin pricks. SC has made mistakes, but that is the past. We have slowly and many times behind the scenes tried to patch the areas that were bleeding us to death. A lot of progress has happened, but we are going to move faster and more decisively.



          If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.

          Comment

          • Peter W
            Captain
            • May 2011
            • 509

            #20
            Originally posted by SubHuman

            Done! The software is pretty picky lately for some reason.

            Bob
            Thank you Bob. Think it was after I added a reason for editing ?

            Peter

            Comment

            • Rick Teskey
              Lieutenant Commander
              • Jan 2009
              • 233

              #21

              A man walks into an office. Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please. Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before? Man: No, this is my first time. Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment. Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No. Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12. Man: Thank you. He enters room 12. Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT? Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that... Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS! Man: What? A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!! M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!! A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse! M: Oh! Oh I see! A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door. M: Oh...Sorry... A: Not at all

              Comment

              • Rick Teskey
                Lieutenant Commander
                • Jan 2009
                • 233

                #22
                sorry no soggy toast intended If I was misunderstood.

                Comment

                • coryhenry
                  Lieutenant Commander
                  • Jul 2020
                  • 156

                  #23
                  I love Monty Python!!

                  Comment

                  • Subculture
                    Admiral
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 2119

                    #24
                    If you're hoping to get things back to the way they were say twenty years ago, when the SC had around thousand members, I would temper expectations.

                    It's a very different world today, and the younger generations have different ways of consuming media. For starters they chiefly use mobiles rather than computers- that means small screens, and most websites and forums don't work well on mobile platforms, they're too finicky. Compare that with Facebook, which has its own app, and is arguably easier to use on a mobile than a desktop or laptop.

                    From my own perspective, I've always believed that in this hobby, if you can get a dozen or more talented and motivated people working harmoniously as a team towards a common set of goals, there isn't much that is out of reach. However it's quite difficult to achieve that in practice and keep it stable over the time you need to reach the objectives.

                    Comment

                    • SubDude
                      Captain
                      • Dec 2019
                      • 803

                      #25
                      My youngest son driving my Nautilus at Subfest...

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                      and then skipper of his first sub. The Thunder Tiger Neptune he won. A fantastic underrated RTR sub.

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                      It is because of a 3D printed Redoutable that we are involved with RC subs. I love my 3D printed hulls. They keep getting better as I try different materials and finishing methods. In addition to the Redoutable I also have a 1/72 LA and a 1/7th Hunley as well as parts of my 1/76th Ohio that are printed and I look forward to many more. My GRP boats are special and they have their place in my growing fleet but I prefer to push the envelopes of 3D. Each medium has it's strengths and weaknesses. I am currently printing with ASA on an Ender 3 Pro and getting such good results that I will likely not be going back to PLA+ any time soon. I have not been involved with the SC to date but look forward to what 2021 will bring under the guidance of Bob, Ed and Tom. They have my full support.

                      Comment

                      • coryhenry
                        Lieutenant Commander
                        • Jul 2020
                        • 156

                        #26
                        Originally posted by RCJetDude
                        I am currently printing with ASA on an Ender 3 Pro and getting such good results that I will likely not be going back to PLA+ any time soon. I have not been involved with the SC to date but look forward to what 2021 will bring under the guidance of Bob, Ed and Tom. They have my full support.
                        Do you print in an enclosure for ASA?

                        Comment

                        • SubDude
                          Captain
                          • Dec 2019
                          • 803

                          #27
                          Originally posted by coryhenry

                          Do you print in an enclosure for ASA?
                          Yes. Running at 40C. Also using a glass build surface with Magigoo instead of the stock magnetic one. I usually use a good sized brim on the base of the part. Warping is minimal if any. Once finished and cooled, the part separates easily from the bed. My Hunley is printed completely with it.
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ID:	145056 Seeing Bob's is making me really want to get back on it.

                          Comment

                          • QuarterMaster
                            Rear Admiral
                            • Sep 2015
                            • 1194

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Rick Teskey
                            A man walks into an office. Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please. Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before? Man: No, this is my first time. Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment. Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No. Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12. Man: Thank you. He enters room 12. Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT? Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that... Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS! Man: What? A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!! M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!! A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse! M: Oh! Oh I see! A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door. M: Oh...Sorry... A: Not at all
                            Rick done got into Grampa's "Glaucoma" brownies....again.
                            v/r "Sub" Ed

                            Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
                            NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
                            USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

                            Comment

                            • QuarterMaster
                              Rear Admiral
                              • Sep 2015
                              • 1194

                              #29
                              Originally posted by RCJetDude
                              Each medium has it's strengths and weaknesses.
                              That is the FINEST piece of advice I've seen yet. It applies to ALL facets of this hobby and EVERYTING it touches.

                              There is NO one way.

                              There is NO silver bullet.

                              The solution only fits the application.
                              v/r "Sub" Ed

                              Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
                              NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
                              USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

                              Comment

                              • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                                Moderator
                                • Aug 2008
                                • 12253

                                #30
                                Originally posted by CC Clarke
                                It’s really enjoyable to cogitate on the many views put forth in this thread. Thanks for responding and I hope more reading along will offer feedback.

                                While craftsmanship is still at a premium in this country, DIY hobbies don’t seem to have the same impact as they once did – especially when I was a kid. Most of my friends built plastic models, and at some point, (usually near the beginning of July) we began blowing them up, and building new ones. I learned how to heed instructions, problem solve, paint a little and most of all – finish with as many fingers as I started with.

                                I appreciate the skilled artisans who share their knowledge and methodology as much as anyone. 3D printing is just another tool, but one I believe can make the hobby more accessible to a wider audience.

                                What’s the biggest difference between someone who prints (or buys) a 3D printed hull vs acquiring a hand-made, GRP hull? For the most part, price.
                                Both must be assembled, prepped, painted, made ready for a WTC, and tested. The end result is the same: another boat underway, which is free advertising for the hobby when run in public. More hulls punching holes in the water have the potential to draw more participants. The larger the hobby, the more products are needed to support it, to the betterment of all. There’s plenty of work available for the craftsman and the computer geeks, but how many hulls each month can one highly skilled and dedicated person lovingly produce in a workshop? I would wager not enough to meet the demand – at any price.

                                Again, there are a limited number of deep-pocketed customers at that price point. High quality, well-designed 3D printed hulls can be sold as printable files or physical objects, since 3D printing is still growing, but schools are increasingly pushing it as a STEM subject, and young people are becoming more interested since they can design and make things in a short period of time. That’s another prime segment of the target audience to grow the hobby with. As a Science Fair project, I would have definitely been interested were it available at the time.


                                As an engineer, I’m a cradle-to-grave kind of guy. I like everything from the conceptual to design phase as much as the testing and production aspects. It’s all good. Some jobs take months, others years, and some die untimely deaths, victims of overconfidence or obsolescence due to schedule slips or skyrocketing costs.

                                3D printing has become an indispensable tool to our workflow. Without the expense and wait time associated with machining, it’s pretty handy to be able to place a printed prototype on a bench and have the team throw rocks at it. The resulting feedback ensures we efficiently design-to-build, taking into account interferences for wiring and cabling, mechanical interfaces, and the most important question of all – Have we overlooked anything?
                                3D CAD models are great to review on screen, spinning them on an axis, but when you can physically hold a complex combination of parts that were designed last week, printed at a cost of <$50, it’s a huge leap from what we were doing ten, even twenty years ago when expensive stereo lithography was all the rage with resin printing. And it will only continue to increase in popularity.

                                The Chinese were mentioned as siphoning away our manufacturing:

                                Presently, they don’t innovate – they imitate. Their last big contribution to the world was gunpowder. That’s about to change. I’m okay with competition, it keeps innovation moving forward. That genie is out of the bottle and there’s no turning back. It’s all about numbers, and they have more citizens to placate.


                                The last time I checked, there were still fifty-plus year-old American footprints on the moon, but the pace of innovation that fueled that remains just as active today due hard-working entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, and people with imagination and foresight to see what most of us can’t.
                                We have beaucoup talented engineers creating the future right now – are we diminished because we don’t create apparel like we once did? Low wage, repetitive manufacturing spreads though the world, creating new economies and bringing prosperity to millions. Our economy has an insatiable appetite for an educated workforce who work harder than any other. Our productivity is the envy of the world. We work hard and play harder. Technology-wise, I’ve seen no slacking off during my lifetime. Competition drives us to become more creative and efficient.

                                But I digress. Back on point. . .

                                Producing a well-designed, 3D submarine model is not a modest undertaking. 3D Printing one pretty much is. Assembling, painting and acquiring the know-how to troubleshoot and repair an operational boat is what links and bonds all of us together, regardless of the origins of the hull. On that, I think most are inclined to agree. People gravitate toward like-minded people.

                                An oft-repeated question we would hear (or ask) on submarines was, “What drew you to this?” The answers were amazingly varied, yet similar. But that’s a question for another thread.

                                Promote the hobby, share the tribal knowledge, and let the good times roll. Those who have done this far longer and better than I can best be repaid by following their unselfish examples.

                                CC

                                Dive deep. Fear nothing.
                                When price (one of the moderating elements that separates the men from the boys) is low -- product delivered or home-grown in an almost RTR condition -- you increase, short term, the number of boats at the lake. OK on the face of it.

                                To some degree, when these technical know-nothings encounter a problem THEY CAN'T fix, they quit; not having the skill, patience, nor facilities to resolve the problem. Be that problem structure, electrical, electronic, or trimming. Self correcting, they never make it to the lake. But too many of them get as far as bringing their sub-standard work (and knowledge) to the lake.

                                This is how I see things shaping up: We're charging head-long into the same thing that is killing r/c model aircraft flying (yes, drones have also drawn blood at the local and Federal levels) -- idiots with Mexican and Chinese built airframes who beg of the club elite to outfit, break-in, trim out and school them on the essentials of model aircraft flying. The result: a flight-line heavy in dangerous flyers. No wonder we all hide behind fences --in some cases mandated by law and what's left of the AMA. THERE WAS NO LEARNING CURVE!

                                If you're not invested in a thing, that thing means little to you. A quitters paradise.

                                I attend regattas to run my boats, not spend most of my time at some Newb's table fixing his stuff! I would rather be at a small gathering of competent drivers than attending a big regatta peopled by those who beg me for assistance so they can get THEIR boat back into the water.

                                We should be culling the herd, not flooding the shore line with idiot, needy drivers.

                                A printer does not a model-builder make. The Krell learned that one the hard way.

                                David
                                Last edited by He Who Shall Not Be Named; 06-01-2021, 12:15 PM.
                                Who is John Galt?

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