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Right you are Bob Martin…..

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  • Right you are Bob Martin…..

    Regarding today’s video release “1:48 Scale George Washington Carver RC Submarine Overview” I really wanted to let you know how impressed and gratified I was that you mentioned an alternate method to the ubiquitous Water Tight Cylinder when it came to the larger hulls.

    It shows this community that you are at least just as interested (probably even more so) in having a craftsman build his boat by whatever means is appropriate, or affordable, for that particular application, than making a sale. Even though of course the SubDriver or OTW Cylinder is a good portion of your business, and you have to be a businessman to survive. You walk a fine line. So on a personal note, kudos. You are the vendor I like to see, as well as patronize, to help stay in business.

    As I mentioned in many a post, I prefer larger boats, and the last several years, through experimentation, came to my personal preference of what to do with the design and construction of 1:48 scale and larger boats. So you can understand how elated I was when you recommended Pelican cases or diver boxes for these larger builds. The propulsion recommendation was spot on as well. I really feel as a rule of thumb this method really fits 1:48 scale and larger, I also feel the SubDriver, OTW Cylinder or home made WTC is the way to go for 1:72 and smaller. These boxes are not for ones 1:96 ALFA! Again, as a rule of thumb or course.

    So with that in mind, I’m posting the following pictures from my USS SHARK SSN-591, in hopes that it may help clarify for our shipmates exactly what you were talking about. That they are practical for these monsters. I know I’ve posted these before ad-nauseum, but hopefully they’re a good example of what you were doing a great job of explaining. In being of course that she fit’s what you said to the “t”. The compliment you gave me at Groton regarding her was very well received!

    I use S3 brand Clear Diver boxes rated to 80 ft. These acrylic boxes are very easy to work with, SCIGRIP 16 10315 Acrylic Cement works GREAT with it.

    Overall arrangement: (Excuse the bald fat man….)
    In order from Bow to Stern
    1-Yellow: Charging, STANDBY POWER Switch
    2-Small clear S3 T1000 Case, Remote POWER ON switch
    3-Single Ballast Tank (Diaphragm pump LPB w/Gas Backup. Servo “in the wet” Vent Valve
    4-Large Clear S3 T2500 Case, Command and Control
    5-Large Clear S3 T2500 Case, Propulsion.

    Click image for larger version

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    Here is an example of a S3 T1000 Power box, one that I’m using on PROTEUS. It combines the functions of yellow box and clear box mentioned above (isn’t evolution good?!). I can charge and power on PROTEUS just using the orange “Gatorade cap”. A 433Mhz 2ch remote will switch from Standby mode to Underway mode, 20A fused. The second channel is for lighting, 5A fused. Separating this from the main CnC box was primarily for real estate issues, but I feel lowers potential EMI issues as well. I'm also a big fan of modulating. Becuase even though the points of failure for a leakage is increased, less electronics will be affected. That's why ships are compartmentalized, to contain the flooding lol.

    Click image for larger version

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    The single Ballast Tank Again, servo “in the wet”.

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    Here is the Command and Control box opened, you can see +12VDC and -12VDC Power rails for power distribution, the Receiver, Servos, Telemetry Electronics, Push-rod thru-hulls (based on a recent video tip of Bob’s), and the 2mm Banana jacks for electrical through hulls.

    Click image for larger version

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    Finally, here is the propulsion box. The motor is a Redmond PE20270 12VDC 10A Motor, an RV HVAC motor! Direct drive to 3-1/2” solid brass prop. This particular motor was a gift from Ray Mason, but they can be had on EBAY.

    Click image for larger version

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    Again, spot on with drive recommendation! Even with direct drive, from this chart from an earlier post we can see at my average cruising speed (50% Throttle, ) I draw about an amp. That day in Groton I ran for several hours with little drop in Voltage! These motors have the torque, and efficiency!
    The proof is in the chart folks!!
    FWIW, I tore it apart two years ago or so, and it IS Electrically suppressed just like you said, the caps were identical to what we use on brushed motors!


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    Anyway, I always say, the hardware must fit the application, and your explanation of how you would finish the GWC in my not so humble opinion, is the way to go for a “big girl” They certainly are easier to access than nut/inch bolt down drybox, as well as adding location and removal maintenance flexibility. Though not as plug-n-play as a SubDriver (an Engineering compliment to HWMNBN! lol), this method really isn’t beyond the average builder, I can attest to that!

    Smaller scales, nothing beats a SubDriver, Larger scales should consider these. IMNSHO.

    I’m leaning to a single dry box (RCVR, ESC, BLM, APC only), Servos “in the wet” and your modified "Bilge Pump propulsion motor method for my twin screw DeBoer 1:48 USS NAUTILUS SSN-571 and 1:48 USS KRAKEN SS-370 builds. I'll be using a 3 conductor version of your 2 conductor Waterproof lighting connectors for the Servo Electrical-thru hulls. Funny enough, over 20 years of owing 1:1 scale sailboats and I never considered using my own bilge pumps for RC Sub propulsion lol!! You GO dude!

    Thanks again for another great video.

    I’m just ****ed I missed jumping on the GWC! After all, I'm trying to corner the market at 1:48 scale lol! Whoever owns her now better not let her languish in some basement! I’m keeping my eye out!!


    v/r "Sub" Ed

    Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
    NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
    USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

  • #2
    I considered this idea about 5 years ago but stopped because I couldn't come up with a way to route a servo harness from one box to another and not have a potential for leaks. My idea at the time was to put the receiver and its battery in a separate box to minimize RFI (radio frequency interference) and them route the servo harness to the box(es) containing the servos. Maybe that's overkill - please advise. If the idea has merit how would you route a servo harness from one box to another?

    Dan
    Born in Detroit - where the weak are killed and eaten.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by roedj View Post
      I considered this idea about 5 years ago but stopped because I couldn't come up with a way to route a servo harness from one box to another and not have a potential for leaks. My idea at the time was to put the receiver and its battery in a separate box to minimize RFI (radio frequency interference) and them route the servo harness to the box(es) containing the servos. Maybe that's overkill - please advise. If the idea has merit how would you route a servo harness from one box to another?

      Dan
      through a plastic tube conduit between boxes.

      David
      "... well, that takes care of Jorgenson's theory!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Silicone tubing with the cables run inside? Bond in a spigot on each box, then just slide the tubing over each end.
        DIVE IN! Go on, go on, go on, go on, GO ON! http://www.diveintomodelsubmarines.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by roedj View Post
          I considered this idea about 5 years ago but stopped because I couldn't come up with a way to route a servo harness from one box to another and not have a potential for leaks. My idea at the time was to put the receiver and its battery in a separate box to minimize RFI (radio frequency interference) and then route the servo harness to the box(es) containing the servos. Maybe that's overkill - please advise. If the idea has merit how would you route a servo harness from one box to another?

          Dan
          Again, this is a matter of application, and personal preference.

          As mentioned, clear Silicone or Vinyl tubing is a great way to go if you want. However, I prefer another option:
          I run each connection, or set of connections, separately from an electrical thru-hull.

          I choose this practice as opposed to the flexible "conduit" tube for several reasons:

          1:First and foremost, I have ZERO fear of properly terminating servo wires (or any wire for that matter). I have a complete crimping kit. On a side note, I need to permanently lengthen a servo wire, I won’t solder, I will use 3 male 22 AWG connectors on the servo end of the extension harness, 3 female connectors on the RCVR end of the extension harness. I then remove the original plastic housing from the servo’s connector, and install THAT on the female side of the new extension for the RCVR. I slip non-adhesive heat shrink over each of the 3 male servo connectors, pop the individual males into the females on the servo wires. Cover those exposed, mated connectors with the heat shrink. Heat to perfection, and you're done. With a razor, you can remove the heat shrink and reinstall the Servo wires to their original state with a female plastic housing. I personally LOATH soldering PVC wires less than 18AWG. But I can crimp with my eyes closed.

          2-Flexibility: I don’t like a bottleneck of wires all going to a single point in the box. You need to be VERY cognizant in your pre-planning of where you’re gonna place things in the Diver Box if you're going that route. PLAN ahead for routing and length of ALL the wires. It’s gonna suck MORE if you've forgotten something important! Outside of the compartment, I can route them as I see fit for compartment to compartment, Compartment to battery, etc. I’m not constrained by the need to route a less flexible tube, especially if you’re using vinyl. You can add an electrical through hull almost anywhere that’s practical, straight or right angle entry! I can make each individual wire, or group as in a servo harness, as long or short as I need to route around components. I add 10% extra service length in case i need to move the servo, pump, box etc.

          3-Compartmentalization: I spoke of that, using tubes negates it.
          Because even though the points of failure for a leakage is increased, less electronics will be affected. That's why ships are compartmentalized, to contain the flooding lol.
          If one compartment leaks, all those connected will all see that moisture. I’m just not a fan of water in my bilge, or any bilge for that matter.

          4-EMI: Bundling signal and power wires make me double think what I’m doing when I trace those glitching issues, especially on my 75Mhz, Brushed motor boats. Probably not an issue as many SubDrivers can attest to, but I like eliminating even remote possibilities, especially when it’s not the only reason why I’m doing something.

          5-Ease of Assembly: When I terminate all the electrical connections to the walls of the box, I find it REAL easy to put together, and real forgiving if I want to switch something up, or add something I forgot. The external electrical connections, along with the mechanical ones, are easily removable to pull a single compartment to the bench for work or testing. I always add at least 3 extra or more for growth.

          To reiterate, I’m running the wires, servo harness’s, in the wet!

          Here are my thru-hulls. Consider longitudinal (straight entry) applications as subs are long and thin lol, or Right angle if you need to penetrate from the compartment side (athwartships).

          Straight entry:

          I use 2mm Banana Jacks/Plugs for 16AWG and smaller wire diameters. Servo Signals, lighting, pumps and solenoids <5Amps. They’re rated for 20A. I will NOT run >10A through these. (Derating 50%)

          3.5mm Banana Jacks/Plugs for 14AWG wiring. This is my supply power. Battery feeds, ESC and Motor connections, Up to 20A Max, which is my Main Fuse rating. They’re rated for 40A. I will NOT run >20A through these, the fuse won’t let it. (Derating 50%).

          Right Angle entry:

          6-32 Brass threaded Rod: Essentially you can hook up to these with a ring or fork lug. Brass has an Ampacity rating of 28% compared to Copper, Stainless steel fans will only see 3 to 15%! 6-32 Screw has a minor diameter of 0.0989”...giving us a cross sectional area...blah..blah..blah...math...blah….WTF!?! ...blah..science...blah.. PCB Ampacity toolkit...blah..blah….blah
          Ok, comparable to 10-11AWG wire, call it 10 since we’re only running 1/2inch or less. So 28% of 55A gives us 15.4A continuous. Due to the shortness of these connections, I still think 20A no problem for you race boats. There’s always 8-32!

          Now why the emphasis on derating? Not so much burning up the wiring, but (for me) to eliminate voltage drop, and limit thermal rise in a sealed box as much as possible. Cool electronics are happy electronics. I run my boat for HOURS at a time, not minutes. Heat increases over time, especially in a motor compartment. So why NOT oversize?

          I’m sure by now you’re all giggling, thinking WTF do you go this deep? It’s just a model and you’re overthinking it. I do electrical design like this for a living (Military Power Boards) and I just think this way. I also want my models to run efficiently as possible. I’m a nuts-n-bolts guy and always want to know WHY??? too. I lost a boat, my very first one, there will NOT be a second if I can help it. Murphy’s Law is a “Clear and present Danger” in my life, period.

          Sorry I’m getting long winded again.

          Here is how I make the Female 2mm thru-hull connections:

          Click image for larger version

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          Here I’m making 3.5mm Power Rails for Power Distribution for the Command and Control Box. all the 2mm Female connections are soldered on one face, the single 3.5mm power Female connector soldered on the opposite face

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          Click image for larger version

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          Here are the items installed on the CnC box. FWD is to the left.
          The power supply rails are to the left. I use (P)ort for (P)ositve (+), and Starboard for ground (-) just for standardization, and it keeps things straightforward without labeling everything as the wire color will do.

          Several thoughts to consider.
          A-Use Drill Bits designed for PLASTIC!
          B-Countersink 25-50% of the plastic thickness for each hole (2mm, 3.5mm) from the WET side. I use a properly shaped Dremel grinder to ensure it’s rough.
          C-Apply JB to the Dry side of the 2mm and push into the case. It will fill the CSK on the wet side, making the seal. It’s good to make a jig that will stop it at a pre-set depth so you don’t push it through.
          D-Liberally apply JB to the power rail on the 3.5mm connector side, and press that through from the inside. I then go back and fill the wet side CSK with JB,

          You can now see how it goes together.

          Click image for larger version

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          Those of you who are sharp eyed will notice the ESC was incorrectly wired to my standard! I was able to correct that before the final assembly.

          Here we can see I made up the 2mm Male connectors that will plug into the wet side, in this case a servo harness. Use moisture proof Heat shrink of course!

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          The Wet Side 3.5mm Connectors, same deal.

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          Here are the 2mm Male connectors on the dry side, no need for moisture proof Heat Shrink!
          Sharp eyed folks will also notice Mr. Bob Martin’s Antenna/Silicone tube pressurizing method on the top right. In this case I use a PVC tube so as to not chafe the antenna wire. It’s sealed on the wet side with a short piece of silicone tubing and an o-ring.

          Click image for larger version

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          Like I do my 2.4Ghz Coax Antennas.
          If you look closely at the Power Box in the first post, I ran the 16 AWG wires through the hull this way , but with brass tubes as the PVC insulation was thick enough.

          Click image for larger version

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          Here you can see the wet side, ⅛” ID Silicone tubing sealed to the box with silicone. And a final #9 (7/32) o-ring to finish the seal. Watertight! No corrosion to cause voltage drop and eventual failure of the banana jack. I also put a dab of CorrosionX on the wires Heat shrink portion to aid in the seal and make it easy to install and subsequently remove.

          Click image for larger version

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          Here is the 6-32 Brass Screw, good for right angle connections, like on the side.

          Click image for larger version

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          In this example I’m using it on the brushless drive housing for PROTEUS. I don’t have the room to have made them straight entry. I will cover them with black Flex Seal as they are a somewhat more permanent installation.

          Click image for larger version

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          FWIW, I think having the ability to to trim or extend Servo leads with the proper connectors should be a Primary skill among the RC Modeler. It takes minutes to do, cleans up the assembly, lessens EMI issues, parts are inexpensive, and just looks professional!


          Click image for larger version

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          v/r "Sub" Ed

          Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
          NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
          USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

          Comment


          • #6
            I just think there are so many options for wiring without having to “thread” the conduit tube…….

            With the room, and keeping Servo’s in the “Wet”, this was what I was referencing in the earlier post regarding the waterproof, three conductor, connectors. This is the right angle, and what I wanted to use on PROTEUS, but the distance on the wet side was too short, . My upcoming 688 will be a different story lol.

            Straight entry just needs a ID tube and a silicone tube seal like the earlier antenna example

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            I do really love the flexibility of these 2mm and 3.5mm Banana Jacks/Plugs as seen in the following examples.
            I purchase them by the gross.

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            In conclusion, I really think this individual wiring methodology is the way to go. While it may be a bit of work initially, the 5 reasons I mentioned earlier makes it worthwhile. AT least to me.

            For example imagine running tubes and then pushing wires through them on this beast? It’s ALL about the application.

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            Be flexible to the point of being fluid, and never be afraid to try!

            v/r "Sub" Ed

            Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
            NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
            USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

            Comment


            • #7
              Ed,
              Thank you for sharing! I learned some new techniques and ideas. It takes time to create a post, but the reward of improving our hobby is multiplied. Again, thank you.
              If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ed,


                This is a timely post, chock-full of superb information. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this all up for us. I'm going to steal a LOT of this for my XXI build.

                Speaking of the GWC, the buyer asked me to create the watertight boxes for it, so that is a second application. Again, timely, and I'm intensely thankful for the info, links and tips.


                Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SubHuman View Post
                  Ed,


                  This is a timely post, chock-full of superb information. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this all up for us. I'm going to steal a LOT of this for my XXI build.

                  Speaking of the GWC, the buyer asked me to create the watertight boxes for it, so that is a second application. Again, timely, and I'm intensely thankful for the info, links and tips.


                  Bob
                  Thanks! Team ND!! lol

                  The Box brand I use is S3 Case Line They also have the data sheets on each for download in case you want to 3D print mounts and internal brackets so you'll be able to make a 3D envelope of the boxes to work from. Not sure if they have stl files of the boxes, but you can ask saying you're developing custom use boxes using their product lol (not a lie!!)

                  I use T1000 & T2500 , but yo may even want the T3000.

                  Here is a good, inexpensive source: LiesurePro

                  Looking forward to the build videos!
                  v/r "Sub" Ed

                  Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
                  NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
                  USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Lookiit the size of that Goddamn Sub!...absolutely beautiful work!
                    A man of true Frankenstinean proportions!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kim Sleep View Post
                      Lookiit the size of that Goddamn Sub!...absolutely beautiful work!
                      If it's that 1:48 scale 688, wish I could take credit for the original build! But by the time I'm done, what was a 688(I) will be a 688 Flight 2, with working fish and VLS.

                      Hope to have her running late this season for September in Groton. Weapons systems and extras to be added next off season. (20/21).
                      v/r "Sub" Ed

                      Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
                      NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
                      USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I find it amazing that you are using a RadioLink Radio, rather than the traditional low frequency FM unit. I was starting to think that I was the only one in North America that used them, altho I have used them in the past for Drones.
                        I find the Modular sub driver system amazingly well thought out and built with great precision and skill. Im a old fussbudget when it comes to interior builds and wiring as well.
                        Overall, a amazingly skilled build!!
                        I would love to see a video of it in the water!

                        *EDIT: I realise I have used the word "Amazing" far too often in this post, I am working on this problem.
                        A man of true Frankenstinean proportions!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kim Sleep View Post
                          I would love to see a video of it in the water!.
                          You ask for video? I'LL give you video!

                          This is why they call me Ed "Will die from his own hubris" Tordahl. I have NO shame.

                          These and others have been posted in various threads here, but no need to hunt and these should suffice.............

                          Getting ready for Groton , USS SHARK SSN-591: MOD 3 Sea Trials 2019-08-11 (1:48 DeBoer Skipjack) MOD III Gas Ballast System w/"Low Pressure Blower"

                          USS SHARK SSN-591 RC Submarine: Interactive 360Fly Camera Test (Please use your mouse to pan around)

                          Others at this past Groton Fun Run filmed from the podium (Raw Video)
                          2019-09-07/08 (when playing, click to enlarge)

                          Part I: Close aboard Surface running

                          Part II: Surface running

                          Part III: A diving evolution

                          Part IV: 2.4Ghz Persicope Depth running FWIW, I had circumnavigated the lake at this PD more times than I could count. Successfully maneuvering her from that podium even straight across, along the far shore opposite of me. The area just before where the beach starts again, hard to see the scope at that distance. Thankfully I get magnetic Heading from the onboard Flight Controller Telemetry. The buoys acted "mines" and broke my rudder stock ending a marathon PD run at 3h20m on Sunday lol.


                          Earlier Videos

                          USS SHARK SSN-591: 2017 Sea Trials (1:48 DeBoer Skipjack) MOD II Pump "Displacement System" w/"Gas Backup" (ala original SUBTECH ALBACORE ballast type design)

                          Real world trials: 2017-08-06: Lake Ronkonkoma Heavy "Sea State"



                          Last edited by QuarterMaster; 01-16-2020, 02:55 PM.
                          v/r "Sub" Ed

                          Silent Service "Cold War" Veteran (The good years!)
                          NEVER underestimate the power of a Sailor who served aboard a submarine.
                          USS ULYSSES S GRANT-USS SHARK-USS NAUTILUS-USS KEY WEST-USS BLUEBACK-USS PATRICK HENRY-K432-U25-SSRN SEAVIEW-PROTEUS-NAUTILUS

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by QuarterMaster View Post

                            You ask for video? I'LL give you video!

                            This is why they call me Ed "Will die from his own hubris" Tordahl. I have NO shame.

                            These and others have been posted in various threads here, but no need to hunt and these should suffice.............

                            Getting ready for Groton , USS SHARK SSN-591: MOD 3 Sea Trials 2019-08-11 (1:48 DeBoer Skipjack) MOD III Gas Ballast System w/"Low Pressure Blower"

                            USS SHARK SSN-591 RC Submarine: Interactive 360Fly Camera Test (Please use your mouse to pan around)

                            Others at this past Groton Fun Run filmed from the podium (Raw Video)
                            2019-09-07/08 (when playing, click to enlarge)

                            Part I: Close aboard Surface running

                            Part II: Surface running

                            Part III: A diving evolution

                            Part IV: 2.4Ghz Persicope Depth running FWIW, I had circumnavigated the lake at this PD more times than I could count. Successfully maneuvering her from that podium even straight across, along the far shore opposite of me. The area just before where the beach starts again, hard to see the scope at that distance. The buoys acted "mines" and broke my rudder stock ending a marathon PD run at 3h20m on Sunday lol.


                            Earlier Videos

                            USS SHARK SSN-591: 2017 Sea Trials (1:48 DeBoer Skipjack) MOD II Pump "Displacement System" w/"Gas Backup" (ala original SUBTECH ALBACORE ballast type design)

                            Real world trials: 2017-08-06: Lake Ronkonkoma Heavy "Sea State"



                            HOLY CRAP!!! I just noticed the Linear Horizontal Throw Servos, which REALLY save space. I used them a lot when I was in the film industry in various builds...but man, they are expensive, altho it seems money is no object here.
                            A man of true Frankenstinean proportions!!

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                            • #15
                              Are they these?
                              http://www.emsjomar.com/linear.aspx
                              If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.

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