BIG News From the Drydocks

[tifosi12]

Good post.

FWIIW: I like CGTRADER.COM for finding files as well as for finding 3D modelers to do a job for me. They often are very reasonably priced because they prefer to maintain the right to sell the model also to other customers (of course negotiable, but always fine by me). Likewise if you think you have what it takes, put your work out there. IMHO TURBOSQUID.COM is the market leader but also has the highest prices. CGTRADER is like #2 but that's often good enough because you find models at lower prices.

[CC Clarke]

For many, TIME is what drives their pursuits. And in this hobby, you have scratch builders, 3D printer makers, and 3D modelers.

3D printing with a decent file that looks good is the easiest and fastest method.

Scratch building has it's own drawbacks and rewards. You'll see model builds here that take years to complete. I understand the satisfaction that can bring.

I've seen 3D submarine files that look like they were carved out of wood with a dull blade and scanned to create a file that isn't worth the printing material.

Re-meshing a crappy file is often more work than starting from scratch if you don't have the source CAD file. The triangles, (all STL and OBJ files are made of triangles) need to be changed to quads and that is pretty time-consuming in itself.

I spend far more time designing than printing; and prior to beginning a design, spend months collecting reference material to ensure accuracy, which can consume a lot of time. Last year, I contacted the wife of the 2nd Nautilus skipper and came up with some useful ref material to insure my model was correct for the time period I was working on.

Too often, I see the same inaccurate "drawings / blueprints" for boats used over and over, because the author failed to verify everything they drew with reference photos and the person using the drawing doesn't know, so the mistake continues in another form. Time-consuming ref drawing verification is pretty much Step 1 when creating submarines, (or anything else for that matter) which are notoriously hard to find decent drawings for.

If I were incarcerated, bed-ridden, or had nothing else going on in my life, I'd be content to create new content all day long. Such is not the case and I doubt I'm alone.

This hobby, (along with many other hands-on pursuits like model railroading) is slowly dying, and without younger blood coming in, will continue to decline.

Forget about making a profit doing this as a full-time business unless you work from home. I haven't seen any US vendors remain profitable as a main source of income. The Subcommittee vendor forum was a graveyard of dead sites. Why? The time required to develop and manufacture products for one, and a declining revenue base are major factors, as stated previously. Wanna pay someone a cut-rate $20 an hour to build hulls? Sorry, the product would be far too expensive. People willing to work for free are a more endangered species than RC submarine enthusiasts.

"Museum Quality", static submarine models made of wood sell for >$1000. They sport few appreciable details, usually a four-color paint job, some decals, and a wooden base with nameplate. Some sit on transverse railroad ties, which I've always though looked sad. Sometimes, the "railroad ties" don't even touch the hull! (The front and rear supports are just for show.)

Here's one example: 1/200 scale Sturgeon for $1355. Sturgeon class submarine (modelshipmaster.com)​ Typical DSRV hatch marking only used for builder's Sea Trials likely included for visual impact since there isn't much else going on. (Submarine paint jobs are notoriously bland anyway.)

How can a shop build larger, RC boats (even 3D printed) at a profit? Only in bulk, with a steady stream of well-heeled customers and labor tossed in for free. Free labor pretty much kills any chance for a viable business of any kind when so much is required.

Selling submarine STL files is one alternative to help defray the cost of the labor used to produce them. Another 3D model vendor sells 3D submarine files that look pretty good, but they charge $800 for a 3D printed version of the file. That's more than the cost of many 3D printers!

IF I could sell 3D printable submarine files at $800 a pop, I might (eventually) turn a profit, but it would take more sales than I think are probable for the amount of time invested to create them. I just don't see a large demand for submarine STL files at that price point in this very specialized hobby. And then you get entitled folks who request the files for free. They would be shocked to learn what a professional modeler's hourly rate can be, in the US. Most movies use modelers in Asia to reduce costs. You get what you pay for and with professional modelers, it is never cheap.

I looked at marketing kits, but there are a limited number of people who could successfully complete a complex resin kit, no matter how well-designed and detailed it is. Reaching those who would they be willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a kit cuts the potential customer numbers even more so.

Bob's announcement wasn't surprising. The first time I saw his expansive, new store/shop he created to support the hobby, my first thought was, "Where are all the customers needed to fund just the infrastructure to support this, much less labor to justify the time?" Expensive, niche hobbies supported as a business are usually relegated to garages, with minimal overhead by passionate people. Passion, however intense doesn't pay the bills.

Business is cold, hard, math at it's core. If you can make enough money doing something you love, you just scored big-time.

I have finally retired and have more time to spend doing submarine CAD design work; so the amount of time/labor I expend has become my hobby. At some point, I may market files, but it would be to major model distributors with huge customer bases to have any chance of getting them downloaded in any appreciable quantity, and there is still no guarantee. Luckily, the number of submarine-experienced, 3D file creators who print is exceedingly small. There is one submariner on Facebook / Meta who prolifically builds models for the price of materials and shipping. Now, that's a guy who loves what he does and has the time to make it happen, without worrying about money. Nice, but exceedingly rare these days.

Like it or not, 3D printing is the only hope this hobby has of surviving and bringing in new converts who are more comfortable with the technology required.

[tifosi12]

3d printing has made it cheaper still and also opened up the esoteric subjects that were once the preserve of the few that could scratchbuild.

Very well put.

I always wanted to build the UFO Skydiver submarine. There once was a fibre "kit" but long gone. But with the advent of 3D models I'm now finally able to realize my dream: So far it is only a surface runner, but hopefully by next summer I have also a diving version.

.

[Subculture]

When did the concept of hard become a bad thing; something always to be avoided?

I think that is essentially human nature. Save for a few individuals with the drive and enthusiasm to push for something more.

If you make something simpler, you make something more accessible which often increases the numbers, but in turn tends to mean the majority of those in the hobby will be a little less hardcore.

In a nutshell years ago, you had to be able to scratchbuild from raw materials if you wanted a model sub, or at very least a specific model. Kits made it more accessible, early kits were more basic and required more fabrication skills. Injection moulded and vac-formed models made it less expensive, 3d printing has made it cheaper still and also opened up the esoteric subjects that were once the preserve of the few that could scratchbuild.

[rwtdiver]

Surry I just can't let it go!!



Try manufacturing this :Old School"!!

I do hope Nautilus Drydocks keeps the great STL submarine files coming, because like it or not, 3D Printing will advance the Submarine building hobby FORWARD!

OK! Now I am really done with this subject matter!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat."

[rwtdiver]

Do not condemn it until you have tried it!

Poop it out! Give me a break. I am really getting sick and tired of those that give 3D printing a bad wrap! If you want to do submarine building "Old School" go for it. But do not condemn those of us that look forword to the use of technology and the manufacturing processes that go along with it.







Enough said!!!

Rob
"Firemen can stand the heat"

[tifosi12]

When did the concept of hard become a bad thing; something always to be avoided? What's your sense of accomplishment after the robot poops out your hull?

I'm one of those hopeless romantics who sees reward at the end of the trail marked, hard.

David
Luddite

To each his own.

I actually LOVE the process of editing 3D files online, then print, see how they fit together, make changes and slowly develop a solution. To me that is a creative process. There is no such thing as downloading the 3D files, print them and presto you have boat. Never works that way. Anybody who thinks that, has never actually 3D printed a boat and make it work.

3D printing a static model is a no brainer agreed. But none of the so called ready to print models have ever worked for me. I got several from Oto and one from Bob but they all still need lots of changes. Not because they are flawed but because there might be a different design philosophy behind it (Oto uses vertical cuts, I prefer horizontal ones) or because I want to add more details or use a different dive system etc etc. A 3D file is a good starting but that's about it.

I know you are a master at crafting stuff from scratch in your shop. I have not even a fraction of that talent, skill or time. I have scratch built stuff in the past but only as a last resort and with the arrival of 3d modeling and printing I'm not doing that anymore. That said, a 3D built model still requires a lot of traditional model building skills.

[RCSubGuy]

Bob, I hope you keep the 3D files available for sale on your website past August 1st.

Yes, absolutely. I'm just culling down the mind-numbing, expensive and labor-intensive in-house production items. Just spent 5 hours yesterday knocking out Flying Sub Cylinders. [sarcasm]SO MUCH FUUUUNNNN![/sarcasm]

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

When did the concept of hard become a bad thing; something always to be avoided? What's your sense of accomplishment after the robot poops out your hull?

I'm one of those hopeless romantics who sees reward at the end of the trail marked, hard.

David
Luddite

[tifosi12]

BZZZZZTTT! Nope. Wrong. Thanks for playing. Hate to break it to you, but 3D file sales outpace fiberglass boats at least three to one right now, and that gap is only increasing.

Couldn't agree more. I'm done with fibre glass hulls and trying to convert a plastic model into a R/C sub. Way too hard. I need to be able to edit the 3d files in a way so I can build the model. To me 3D printing is the only way going forward.

Bob, I hope you keep the 3D files available for sale on your website past August 1st.

[Subculture]

If you can't draw them CAD and don't wish to learn how to, there are CAD draughtsman/modellers who will produce a 3d file for a fee, and their rates can be quite reasonable. Resin 3d printers are very cheap now, especially if you don't want the super duper high res models- 2k is more than adequate for the majority of users, so you don't really need that 8-12k monster.

I'll leave that discussion there as I think we are rather hijacking the original thread now.

[wlambing]

I do scratch stuff enough as it is, David! Just tired of having to do so much of that for any of my projects. I guess I just picked the wrong ships to build and the wrong scales to build them in!!!!

[gantu]

Now all hulas from Engel are produced in China. I had contact to the owner of the molds.

[Subculture]

If 3d printed hulls are showing defects like faceting, then that is a defect in the original cad file- low resolution modelling.

Striations are down to poor finishing by the modeller- 3d prints require a bit more work than a well moulded GRP hull or an injection moulded plastic kit, fdm printing probably is the process that needs the most work to obtain a good result, but it's also the most cost-effective for home use. Resin printing is so good that all it needs is a light rubdown and prime, but it is more expensive. Having said that FDM gets you 90% of the way there, if a modeller can't get a good result with that then it's not really the process that's a problem.

[Das Boot]

It’s the same as restaurants. I never understood how they made a profit, and I have a degree in marketing.