Introduction and new Sub project

[Lash151]

Hi.. my name is Lee, I have just joined the forum and wanted to say hello. I have been on Model boat Mayhem for some time so some of you might know me from there.

I am just getting into submarines but haven't put one together yet, so I am hoping you guys will be able to give me some guidance as time goes on.

I want to scratch build a sub but I have had the idea of building it entirely from styrene sheet. It will be sort of plank on frame construction, or more like sheet on frame actually... the frames would be 2mm styrene with a skin of 1mm, which might be layered. I am going for a simple sub shape, either an Akula or LA class at 1/96th scale and dynamic dive to begin with. (This might all be daft idea... but its worth a try).

I have a couple of questions... I am not sure whether to construct it as a complete cylinder, so to speak, and then cut the top off for access to the inside, or build the top and bottom separately. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

The second thing is, on a nuclear sub design... how do you position holes to flood the boat and keep it looking true to the original.

I am new to subs so forgive me if I ask any silly questions!! I am looking forward to being a member here so thank you for any help in advance!

Lee

[Slats]

Hi Lee.

Like you I am a target builder (model boats / ships) too, and that was my experience coming into the Sub side of things -which seems like a life time ago.

I recommend three things
1. Don't think like a model boater. Yes your RC experience and basic boat construction means you're not talent free, but I have seen too many model boaters entering and leaving the sub hobby, typically as their plastic magic home brew conversion goes off on its first and external patrol.
2. Accept that submarines are very different and much more expensive animals to targets.
3. For your first sub buy something that will give you a good grasp on the basics of how a sub operates. Buy a kit and a WTC (water tight cylinder) to go in it. No point fixating on a scratch build of anything if you haven't a clue regarding the day to day operations of what makes it work, how to service and access it etc.

Regarding Styrene I build museum quality large targets like the one below. I love Styrene as a material and there is pretty much nothing that I know that can't be done with it. That said for the guts of sub hull I'd defer to GRP / or a PVC pipe.


Best

John

[Lash151]

Hi... thanks for the reply John, you have a good point. I shall think long and hard on what you're saying. I think I came upon this idea from the wrong angle slightly... I wanted to try the plank on frame with styrene technique before I thought of building a sub. I have been interested in model subs (from a distance) for some time, so it didn't take much self persuading to get into the idea. I am used to thinking from a scratch building stand point instead of spending £500 upwards on a kit but I suppose the PVC pipe route would be a good starting point. I will avidly read the threads on this forum to get a better idea of it all.
Cheers Lee

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Hi.. my name is Lee, I have just joined the forum and wanted to say hello. I have been on Model boat Mayhem for some time so some of you might know me from there.

I am just getting into submarines but haven't put one together yet, so I am hoping you guys will be able to give me some guidance as time goes on.

I want to scratch build a sub but I have had the idea of building it entirely from styrene sheet. It will be sort of plank on frame construction, or more like sheet on frame actually... the frames would be 2mm styrene with a skin of 1mm, which might be layered. I am going for a simple sub shape, either an Akula or LA class at 1/96th scale and dynamic dive to begin with. (This might all be daft idea... but its worth a try).

I have a couple of questions... I am not sure whether to construct it as a complete cylinder, so to speak, and then cut the top off for access to the inside, or build the top and bottom separately. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

The second thing is, on a nuclear sub design... how do you position holes to flood the boat and keep it looking true to the original.

I am new to subs so forgive me if I ask any silly questions!! I am looking forward to being a member here so thank you for any help in advance!

Lee

You start with a proper set of drawings.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

John has given you excellent advise. I recommend you follow it by starting with the Trumpeter 1/144 SEAWOLF kit and Caswell-Merriman Sub-driver for it, get the recommended devices and move on from there. Crawl, stumble, walk, jog, then... and only then .... RUN!

[Albion]

Agree with the below, or above depending on your forum settings BLUSHER

If you have a Nuke in mind, why not go for the Skipjack plastic kit and sub driver. The bigger size sub driver will be easier to work on, the skipjack is still a relatively simple kit. Lastly if you still have the urge for a scratch build Nuke , you could re use the the sub driver in a similar sized scratch hull

[Scott T]

Here is a build that uses the sub driver, pvc pipe, and some styrene scratch building by Steve Neill.

Link deleted by M Caswell
Neil's efforts are not welcome on this forum.

[Lash151]

Here is a build that uses the sub driver, pvc pipe, and some styrene scratch building by Steve Neill.
http://www.sneillfx.com/page16

Thats excellent, really interesting. Thank you.

[trout]

Lee,
Welcome. I can only offer, begin simple. there is a lot of hurdles that you need to overcome to get your sub running proper. This might be the toughest RC branch of the hobby, but one of the most rewarding.
Peace,
Tom

[Slats]

John has given you excellent advise. I recommend you follow it by starting with the Trumpeter 1/144 SEAWOLF kit and Caswell-Merriman Sub-driver for it, get the recommended devices and move on from there. Crawl, stumble, walk, jog, then... and only then .... RUN!

Agree - excellent entry level kit.

I recommend three things
1. Don't think like a model boater. Yes your RC experience and basic boat construction means you're not talent free, but I have seen too many model boaters entering and leaving the sub hobby, typically as their plastic magic home brew conversion goes off on its first and external patrol.
2. Accept that submarines are very different and much more expensive animals to targets.
3. For your first sub buy something that will give you a good grasp on the basics of how a sub operates. Buy a kit and a WTC (water tight cylinder) to go in it. No point fixating on a scratch build of anything if you haven't a clue regarding the day to day operations of what makes it work, how to service and access it etc.

Let me expand this a bit. "Don't think like a model boater"

My experience is that mainstream model boaters treat submarines a bit like a novelty side bar that comes mainly to mind when Revell or other quality plastic injection kit manufacturers come out with a boat large enough for the skilled model boater to chuck some RC gear on board.
A lot of these boats are built as a novelty low expense item with basic motor / ESC, rudder servo, battery, and RX. The intent is famously "surface runner" by default.
What then happens is the lack of freeboard, the lack of understanding about the motion of the boat through wind and waves, and model more to the point ridiculous shoe horned access points of "model boat" style that are never water proofed, claim boat after boat. We don't tend to hear about that on the net, but we do see it first hand through attending events. Then there are those who succeed at surface running and want to extend to the natural environment of the sub and want to either dynamic dive, or static dive. The pedigree of the low cost novelty that has worked thus far now is completely misaligned with the real demands of submerged operation. Boat loss, equipment loss, and failure are not now chance events - these become the inevitable.

A skilled model boater can easily convert to RC the plethora of larger plastic injection kits. The term "Plastic Magic" is one coined by various publications including one that I have written for "Model Boats", but it is complete folly to assume that all plastic kits are easily converted to RC when the subject is a submarine.

Plastic kit conversion aside, (and using my own first scale sub - 1/72 Permit class GRP kits as an example), model boaters will still I find adopt the novelty approach and want to spend far less time and money on what is a side bar to them rather than mainstream. My first boat was beautifully detailed but was woefully a failure in the water, due to both my home brew approach to the ESSENTIALS of what makes a sub work. I was clueless to the fact that submerged trim was very different to the perfect horizontal surfaced trim I expected a la "Model Boat Style".

YES we could be considered as "a branch" of the model boating hobby, but in my view its an unhelpful term to new arrivals from the Model Boating surface world. RC Submarines need to be viewed as a serious commitment of time, money, learning, and engineering - a stand alone hobby. I don't intend for that statement to be arrogant against the awesome talent I see amongst model boaters. BUT If we promote and use the term "branch" and I'm guilty of that too, we run the risk of perpetuating Subs being nothing more than the novelty that I find a lot of model boaters consider that we are.

MY 2 cents worth.

J

[Kazzer]

Agree - excellent entry level kit.




Let me expand this a bit. "Don't think like a model boater"

...........................................
YES we could be considered as "a branch" of the model boating hobby, but in my view its an unhelpful term to new arrivals from the Model Boating surface world. RC Submarines need to be viewed as a serious commitment of time, money, learning, and engineering - a stand alone hobby. I don't intend for that statement to be arrogant against the awesome talent I see amongst model boaters. BUT If we promote and use the term "branch" and I'm guilty of that too, we run the risk of perpetuating Subs being nothing more than the novelty that I find a lot of model boaters consider that we are.

MY 2 cents worth.

J

THAT says it all John!

[Lash151]

I seem to have touched a nerve with you all... I am just a model maker who gets excited by the challenge of building working models... Whether one genre is considered a branch of another is irrelevant to me... perhaps there is a secret ceremony or initiation I can undertake to prove I have renounced all that is above the water in favour of all that is below it.
Lee

[Subculture]

Best thing to do Lee, is go and build your sub hull, two halves split equatorially e.g. top and bottom. Essentially the techniques are the same as conventional boat building, which you should be well practiced at.

When you have that done, come back and show us what you have put together, and we'll tell you what you need to do from there on.

[Slats]

I seem to have touched a nerve with you all... I am just a model maker who gets excited by the challenge of building working models... Whether one genre is considered a branch of another is irrelevant to me... perhaps there is a secret ceremony or initiation I can undertake to prove I have renounced all that is above the water in favour of all that is below it.
Lee

Not at all Lee
Please re read my words - you'll know I have gone to great lengths to reassure you that I respect model boaters 100%. In fact I'm one of them! No one's asked you to renounce anything - but a few of us have seen many model boaters walk the path that your thread is suggesting and come unstuck. The whole "branch" labelling bit, which is unimportant and irrelevant to you is an accurate assessment in my two decades worth of experience as to why model boaters come undone when tackling subs. No one here has any doubt of your ability to build a sub, but its the going underwater part that I find model boaters have the most trouble with, far moreso than someone coming from a flight or car RC experience.

There are a lot bum steers in this hobby Lee, a lot of wannabe armchair Admirals. You won't find them on this forum. You will get direct advice from people who want to see you succeed.

J

[Peter W]

I agree with all the above. My first sub was a complete kit including WTC

Buy a Subdriver, do not attempt to scratchbuild one. (This is the quickest ticket out of this branch of the hobby, I have seen it happen).

Listen to all the people above.They know. Their experience and knowledge is invaluable.

And welcome to Subs.

All the best,

Peter