Unorthodox Submarine Building

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  • CC Clarke
    Lieutenant Commander
    • Aug 2020
    • 239

    #16
    This is why God invented reference material. Ignore it at your own peril.

    Making decisions without consulting it is nothing more than guessing, which invites disaster.

    I spend nearly as much time gathering it as I do using it.

    The Alpha build you documented is a prime example. I downloaded the files which provide a good baseline for improvement, and am still in the process of modifying them to reflect reality based on photographs. (There are plenty of inaccurate "blueprints" available online, but pictures are much more reliable.)

    The printed results I'm getting are turning out well. The OEM files use a symmetrical upper and lower rudder support structure, but there is a difference between the two as-designed; the escape pod leading and trailing edges should be angled, rather than straight. My previous experience as a submarine intelligence analyst ensures I refer to multiple sources before committing to any design decision, but my submarine experience helps me look for subtle differences others might miss. I'll post shots of my Alpha build when its mature, but the OEM file needs buffing up before it's ready for prime time.

    Refer to the following photos as a start to determine where the waterline lives, hence what you need to calculate for trimming above it.

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    Attached Files
    Last edited by CC Clarke; 08-31-2021, 06:38 PM.

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    • rwtdiver
      Vice Admiral
      • Feb 2019
      • 1768

      #17
      Originally posted by CC Clarke
      This is why God invented reference material. Ignore it at your own peril.

      Making decisions without consulting it is nothing more than guessing, which invites disaster.

      I spend nearly as much time gathering it as I do using it.

      The Alpha build you documented is a prime example. I downloaded the files, and am still modifying them to reflect reality based on photographs. (There are plenty of inaccurate "blueprints" available online, but pictures are much more reliable.) The printed results I'm creating are more reflective of the real deal. My previous experience as a submarine intelligence analyst ensures I refer to multiple sources before committing to any design decision, but my submarine experience helps me look for subtle differences others might miss. I'll post shots of my Alpha build when its mature, but the OEM file needs buffing up before it's ready for prime time.

      Refer to the following photos as a start to determine where the waterline lives, hence what you need to calculate for trimming above it.

      Click image for larger version Name:	Dwg (2).gif Views:	0 Size:	184.7 KB ID:	152939
      CC Clarke,

      I am sure my method of building is going to raise a lot of eyebrows, and already has! My way of building IS unorthodox! I would say that 90% of the people on this forum are way more informed on how to build RC Submarines correctly than I am! Some are down right perfectionist! Most are experts! This expertise did not happen overnight for them! It took them many years to get there! I have almost a full 1.5 years in the hobby!

      Can I put this bluntly: I do not have a lot of time left to study all this mathematical jargon as to what makes a submarine go up and down! My eyesight is bad, my dexterity is even worse than my eyesight! At this point common sense and experimentation works very well for me! "MANY ROADS LEAD TO ROME"

      I will build these two Alfa's (1:96 scale and 1:72 scale) they will have full ballast systems that will work! (not sure what yet) They might be a little unorthodox, but they will perform!

      Thank you for your input!

      Rob
      "Crazy man at work"

      Comment

      • Subculture
        Admiral
        • Feb 2009
        • 2119

        #18
        It's difficult (although not impossible) to get a scale waterline on Russian subs, especially when using low pressure recirculating ballast systems like RCABS, piston tanks sealed tank water pump systems etc. Also hardly worth the effort, as a spindle stern like the Alfa will have to move along at a snails pace on the surface to avoid early onset of prop ventilation, not to mention the lack of rudder authority as you have only a tiny part of the upper rudder in the water.

        If you're a scale purist perhaps it's that or nothing, for practical running however a lower waterline is better.
        Last edited by Subculture; 08-31-2021, 06:49 AM.

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        • rwtdiver
          Vice Admiral
          • Feb 2019
          • 1768

          #19
          Originally posted by rwtdiver

          I am still not understanding this!

          What is this waterline you are referring to? What are the waterline structures?

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          Why can't someone build the boat, put in enough weight to get it to deck a wash, fill the ballast tank by pumping water in to get the boat to just the sail being above water line and move out? when you want to rise up you pump the water out and the boat rises to the deck a wash level again?

          Sorry David! It just seems you can just add an subtract weight to get a boat to a certain level in the water, and by pumping water in and out ballast tank you can fine tune that adjustment!

          Rob
          "Crazy old man at work"
          WOW!

          I think everybody has just miss understood my complete question! That photo I put up of the 3D file printed Alfa came from the 3D file section of the Nautilus Drydocks! That line on the 3D file photo was the break point between the bottom hull and the top hull! I know the waterline on the Alfa is higher, I also have actual photos of the full scale boat!

          My actual question was: When you are weighing the boat to determine the size of the ballast system required, what are the items required inside the boat to determine that weight? WTC, motors, servos, electronics? That was my original question?

          As to scale on these two boats, I am not interested in anything other than a GREY Russian color! These two boats are being built as TEST BEDS ONLY! I am using them because they are a quick and easy 3D printable boat.

          I am using them to design my own WTC/SD/BALLAST system! Not a Mono Lisa! It's a test bed!!

          Rob
          "Crazy old man at work"
          Last edited by rwtdiver; 08-31-2021, 02:19 PM.

          Comment

          • rwtdiver
            Vice Admiral
            • Feb 2019
            • 1768

            #20
            Two Unapproved post reply's!?

            Oh well!

            Rob
            "Crazy old man at work"

            Comment

            • rwtdiver
              Vice Admiral
              • Feb 2019
              • 1768

              #21
              Another logical question?

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              It seems to me based on the size of these forward dive planes, that it would be a waste of time to make them functional! Just to small to really have any major effect in my view! If anyone has a different point of view, please chime in! I know you purest would say operational, common sense, tells me it's a waste of time. I just do not see how they could make that much difference!

              Rob
              "Crazy old man at work"

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              • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                Moderator
                • Aug 2008
                • 12253

                #22
                Originally posted by rwtdiver
                Another logical question?

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                It seems to me based on the size of these forward dive planes, that it would be a waste of time to make them functional! Just to small to really have any major effect in my view! If anyone has a different point of view, please chime in! I know you purest would say operational, common sense, tells me it's a waste of time. I just do not see how they could make that much difference!

                Rob
                "Crazy old man at work"
                They make a difference. A positive one, Rob. Once my ALFA is in proper submerged trim and the stern plane trimmed just right the only depth control I fiddle with is the bow planes.

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                David
                Last edited by He Who Shall Not Be Named; 08-31-2021, 04:01 PM.
                Who is John Galt?

                Comment

                • Subculture
                  Admiral
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 2119

                  #23
                  Originally posted by rwtdiver
                  Two Unapproved post reply's!?

                  Oh well!

                  Rob
                  "Crazy old man at work"
                  Please explain?

                  Comment

                  • rwtdiver
                    Vice Admiral
                    • Feb 2019
                    • 1768

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Subculture

                    Please explain?
                    Bob,

                    The screen went light green, and the at the left bottom in a rectangle, it said Unapproved. This happened with two off my entry's!!??

                    Rob
                    "Crazy old man at work"

                    Comment

                    • rwtdiver
                      Vice Admiral
                      • Feb 2019
                      • 1768

                      #25
                      Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named

                      They make a difference. A positive one, Rob. Once my ALFA is in proper submerged trim and the stern plane trimmed just right the only depth control I fiddle with is the bow planes.

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                      David
                      David,

                      Looking at your bow planes, they look a lot bigger! OK! What I will do is scale the file up and make them a little bigger and make them operational!

                      Thanks for your input and above all photos that show the size!

                      Also David! Are the bow planes tied into stern planes? Or on there own control servo and stick?

                      Thank David,

                      Rob
                      "Crazy old man at work"
                      Last edited by rwtdiver; 08-31-2021, 05:25 PM.

                      Comment

                      • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                        Moderator
                        • Aug 2008
                        • 12253

                        #26
                        Don't know if they're out of scale, I worked the masters up according to the Greg Sharpe drawing.

                        Never gang the stern and bow planes together! (Well... one exception: the SEAVIEW, owing to the exceedingly long moment arm from bow planes to center-of-gravity).

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                        David
                        Who is John Galt?

                        Comment

                        • rwtdiver
                          Vice Admiral
                          • Feb 2019
                          • 1768

                          #27
                          Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named
                          Don't know if they're out of scale, I worked the masters up according to the Greg Sharpe drawing.

                          Never gang the stern and bow planes together! (Well... one exception: the SEAVIEW, owing to the exceedingly long moment arm from bow planes to center-of-gravity).

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                          David
                          Thanks David!

                          I think I will enlarge the bow planes, and then work out a linkage system so they will operate independently! This may be a good fit for those 9g Hitec water proof servos!?

                          Rob
                          "Crazy old man at work"

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                          • rwtdiver
                            Vice Admiral
                            • Feb 2019
                            • 1768

                            #28
                            Well I have managed to really get myself in it again! I have intermixed my ORIGINAL Alfa build with the UNORTHODOX build! So sorry for the confusion!!

                            At this point, I think it best to move this build BACK to the original Alfa blog! I will save the UNORTHORADOX file for something at a later date! (It's hell to get old)

                            Rob
                            "Crazy old man at work)

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