High detail, low cost hulls

[RCSubGuy]

I stumbled across a thread of the same title on RCGroups sub forums a few minutes ago and I have to say that the initial post got my steam up to boiling. The post creator fielded the idea of someone 3D scanning their sub hulls and posting up the files for free on Thingiverse.com or other file sharing site. The part of the quote that I was referencing as well as my reply are here.

I thought it was worth opening up for discussion here as well. His quoted question is below and then my reply follows:

Originally Posted by Kenwhite23 Hey guys. Any of you considered 3d scanning your Hull shells and uploading the STL's to thingiverse?

I'm big into 3D printing. It's wonderful. It's amazing. It will revolutionize the world.

That said, let's just think a bit on this, shall we?

(Prep for rant)

You are asking us to 3D scan a physical, large scale hull. This hull came from one of only a small handful of true artisans who are working in this hobby. They spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours creating a master pattern, researching it, detailing it and bringing it to life.

From this, they sold a casting. It was expensive, yes... perhaps hundreds of dollars. Take that few hundred dollars, however, and divide it by the time they invested in the project so that someone could have that boat. I bet they don't even make minimum wage, do they?

Now.. with a 3D scanner of suitable resolution, someone takes this model that took someone months or even years to bring to life... and creates a digital copy of it it ten minutes worth of scannning. They put it out for free on the internet. No income for the artist that created it anymore. No recognition for their hard work or contribution to the hobby. His sales dry up. After all, why not? Why should someone pay him for a model kit when they can download and print it for just a few dollars worth of PLA or ABS plastic?

Think he'll make another one? No, didn't think so.

You're talking about theft.

If you want to create a digital file and share it with the world, the more power to you. Do it on your time, not on the backs of others. I've seen the "bathtub uboat" on Thingiverse. There's a reason it's free. If you had an accurate 3D model of that boat, someone would sure as hell think twice before posting it up for free.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but jeezus, man, think about what you're asking us to do. This is the equivalent of software or music piracy, just on a more expensive scale.

(Rant done. Please return to your previously scheduled program)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Well. What can I say? Other than ... thank you, sir!

Well said.

David

[Von Hilde]

Scratchbuilding will free your soul, one off stuff that you make yourself, rather than buy somebody's copy of someone else's idea. But that's just me.

[Subculture]

All other things aside, 3D printing is not a cheap way of producing quality hulls anyway. To get close to the detail and resolution of a decent GRP or injection moulded hull, you would need to use high end machines like Objet, and they don't come cheap.

A basic costing for say a small hull of about 20" with a 1/8" wall thickness at Shapeways comes to over a $1000. You can buy an injection moulded plastic kit for less than a tenth of that. For even less you can get a bit of plastic pipe, make stern and bow pieces using traditional bread and butter construction techniques, and a sail from plastic sheet.

3D printing is a fantastic tool, but this notion that it's a cheap way of making things for the man in the street is pure fantasy at the moment. A few years time it won't be, the processes are getting faster and faster, so high definition quality prints for a few pence per cm3 is not that far away, but we're not there yet.

[trout]

Bob, you are right, it is stealing. While the enthusiasm for getting things available to 3D print, some have lost sight of those that took the time to make that hull and want to earn some income from their work. The long term effect is the artist (craftsman) will stop making fine quality hulls to sell. I am all for someone using a CAD program to build a sub and they put their own work up, I am not up for copying someone else's work and distributing it for free.

[redboat219]

I think scanning and 3D printing would be ok if you need to reproduce a missing part like a dive plane or parts of the conning tower but not the whole sub.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I think scanning and 3D printing would be ok if you need to reproduce a missing part like a dive plane or parts of the conning tower but not the whole sub.

NO!............

[redboat219]

Even if for personal use?

So you're saying if I ordered a Revell Type VII and one of the rudder piece got damaged in transit and I happen to have a scanner and 3D printer or even some RTV and casting resin I can't copy the other rudder piece or risk legal action from Revell.

[Von Hilde]

In that particular case, with a Revell production model, you can get the replacement part thru Revell, so you really don't have to plop down all the money for the scanner, set up reproduction process and make one part. If it's a small company that you want to copy, it just ain't right. Scratch build a rudder takes about 5 min. I had a problem loosing hatches. So I took one resin hatch and stuck it into a sculpy clay block and made a mold and baked it. Now I just take a flat piece of clay and use the mold to cookie cut as many as I need. BTW the original resin hatch came from leftovers of a combat kit, so if you know their story, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

[Von Hilde]

All other things aside, 3D printing is not a cheap way of producing quality hulls anyway. To get close to the detail and resolution of a decent GRP or injection moulded hull, you would need to use high end machines like Objet, and they don't come cheap.

A basic costing for say a small hull of about 20" with a 1/8" wall thickness at Shapeways comes to over a $1000. You can buy an injection moulded plastic kit for less than a tenth of that. For even less you can get a bit of plastic pipe, make stern and bow pieces using traditional bread and butter construction techniques, and a sail from plastic sheet.

3D printing is a fantastic tool, but this notion that it's a cheap way of making things for the man in the street is pure fantasy at the moment. A few years time it won't be, the processes are getting faster and faster, so high definition quality prints for a few pence per cm3 is not that far away, but we're not there yet.

Thats what I'm talking about, cost effective. It's like counter fitting $100 bills that cost 500 each to print.

[redboat219]

In that particular case, with a Revell production model, you can get the replacement part thru Revell, so you really don't have to plop down all the money for the scanner, set up reproduction process and make one part. If it's a small company that you want to copy, it just ain't right. Scratch build a rudder takes about 5 min. I had a problem loosing hatches. So I took one resin hatch and stuck it into a sculpy clay block and made a mold and baked it. Now I just take a flat piece of clay and use the mold to cookie cut as many as I need. BTW the original resin hatch came from leftovers of a combat kit, so if you know their story, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Aha! So even you yourself admit to making copies.

[Von Hilde]

Aha! So even you yourself admit to making copies.

Of course, out of production, parts antique models and copy's of a copy,, not to mention the counterfit 20s I am forced to run off my laser scanner on to the bleached out one dollar papers, to pay for this expensive hobby, Making copy's of firearms from bootleg parts is where I make the grocery money. I even copy mymom's recipe for spaghetti sauce. I am a Federally licensed pirate, Florida Keys Wreckers society. It's all good as far as we're concerned, we don't belong to the USA. Conch Republic est. 1982 we seceded from the state of Florida and the United States.

[bwi 971]

NO!............

NO?????.........I expected A four page rage……. seems those medicines are capable of surprising anything these days.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

NO?????.........I expected A four page rage……. seems those medicines are capable of surprising anything these days.

Indeed, I had prepared a plasma temperature, hair-on-fire screed. But, Ellie saw the draft and put the kabash on sending it out. So, the 'no' was all she would let be blast down the wires.

M

[george]

I`ve read his post on RCG and I think it "smells" like a person who disappeared with customers money for submarines that they never got. Who is going to work hard to scratch build a hull, common or new to the market then scan it so someone can print it out on a 3D printer and go from there. What about the initial developer and his time and research and material. I see intellectual theft there from my point of view and kinda dumb to even ask about doing it also.
George