NA Radio problem....what problem?

[QuarterMaster]

For I have touched the future of North American RC Submarine Command and Control, and have found it….wonderful.

FrSky Horus X10S Express 2.4Ghz with R9M 2019 900Mhz and Tandem X20S Dual 2.4Ghz/900Mhz. Both using the ETHOS OS.

Do you want to know more?

Attend the 2023-07-08 Dive Tribe Meeting!



LR-FR
Horus X10S Express and Tandem X20S Dual Freq
USS ULYSSES S GRANT SSBN-631
RU BELUGA CLASS: S-553 Forel

[wlambing]

Thou speaketh gobbledegook!!!!!! :)

[QuarterMaster]

Thou speaketh gobbledegook!!!!!! :)

What's sad COB, it's soooo easy even an A-Ganger could do it.

[wlambing]

I suspect you are right! I was only referring to the make and model stuff you had displayed for your radios. However, not all of us live in the "techy" world. For instance, I possess a very limited intelligence cell phone, because my job at EB wouldn't allow me to have a smart one, even to the point that cardio pacemakers had to be evaluated for use in controlled spaces since they all communicate with satellites now! For the last 3 years of my work life our phones weren't even allowed to be in our office. I don't use "social" media, and thus have none of the technology to support face-to-face online comms. I don't use Bluetooth for anything, even though my phone is capable, it's not compatible with my vehicles. Besides, who wants to stare at a 1.25" square screen to do stuff? I do own some 2.4 ghz gear, but that is for some skimmers I have, and haven't gotten around to setting up yet. Being on a fixed income, having a mortgage, and having to replace my pick-up truck unexpectedly has moved any new tech stuff wayyyyy down the priority list! I have managed to get myself a new cylinder as my 1 present for all of the present giving holidays for this year! My last big thing for this year will be replacing a cracked cylinder head on the HD. I've been waiting over 7 months for the part and riding the crap out of the bike as I wait. I crossed 59,000 miles on it yesterday! I should have more, but the germs came and messed stuff up for everybody.

Anyway, I read all of your postings and enjoy them. Please keep up the good works! I have to ask though, why no info regarding 'Smiling" Mike's CO2 rigs in the past, or Jim Butt's mastery of CO2 as seen in his USS Batfish for so many years? I have a Subworks regulator down in the shipyard that I believe I gave Bob Harris years ago. No info on how to use it, but it's there. I recall thinking about putting it into a 1:48 boat back when I was still young and pretty. We can see how well that thinking worked! ;)

Take care, see you on a beach, somewhere, someday!
Bill

[SubDude]

Ed, with the Tandom X20S, did it come with an RX? If not, did you use something like the TD R10 RX and if so did you do the standard extend of one of the 2.4 Ghz antennas and simply tuck the 900 Mhz antenna inside the WT box or cylinder?

[Sinksalot]

hmm the FrSky R9 STAB OTA 900mhz receiver looks very nice. With built-in 3-axis gyroscope and 3-axis accelerometer.

[SubDude]

Talking with David Ruiz he does raise a valid question. What is the benefit of a dual frequency or tandom system? Why not just go 900 Mhz and be done with it?

[QuarterMaster]

I suspect you are right! I was only referring to the make and model stuff you had displayed for your radios. However, not all of us live in the "techy" world. For instance, I possess a very limited intelligence cell phone, because my job at EB wouldn't allow me to have a smart one, even to the point that cardio pacemakers had to be evaluated for use in controlled spaces since they all communicate with satellites now! For the last 3 years of my work life our phones weren't even allowed to be in our office. I don't use "social" media, and thus have none of the technology to support face-to-face online comms. I don't use Bluetooth for anything, even though my phone is capable, it's not compatible with my vehicles. Besides, who wants to stare at a 1.25" square screen to do stuff? I do own some 2.4 ghz gear, but that is for some skimmers I have, and haven't gotten around to setting up yet. Being on a fixed income, having a mortgage, and having to replace my pick-up truck unexpectedly has moved any new tech stuff wayyyyy down the priority list! I have managed to get myself a new cylinder as my 1 present for all of the present giving holidays for this year! My last big thing for this year will be replacing a cracked cylinder head on the HD. I've been waiting over 7 months for the part and riding the crap out of the bike as I wait. I crossed 59,000 miles on it yesterday! I should have more, but the germs came and messed stuff up for everybody.

Anyway, I read all of your postings and enjoy them. Please keep up the good works! I have to ask though, why no info regarding 'Smiling" Mike's CO2 rigs in the past, or Jim Butt's mastery of CO2 as seen in his USS Batfish for so many years? I have a Subworks regulator down in the shipyard that I believe I gave Bob Harris years ago. No info on how to use it, but it's there. I recall thinking about putting it into a 1:48 boat back when I was still young and pretty. We can see how well that thinking worked! ;)

Take care, see you on a beach, somewhere, someday!
Bill

COB, as long as you know I'll always be there to help if needed. You reach out anytime.

[Sinksalot]

Yea thanks to Ed I took a closer look at Frsky 900mhz receivers. Some of them have the same features as Frsky 2.4ghz receivers. The one 900mhz FrSky R9 STAB OTA 900mhz receiver has built-in 3-axis gyroscope and 3-axis accelerometer. and it has 8 physical channels and a few others internally from the spec I see. It looks like a 2.4ghz receiver where they swapped out the 2.4ghz and added 900mhz. I am sure some of the other Frsky 900mhz they make are just as good. All I was saying to Steve was If you have two receivers and they both do the exact same thing and both send telemetry, why do you need one for the surface(periscope depth) and one for underwater. I would like to thank Ed again as I didn't know Frsky had a 900mhz receiver with a gyro and a accelerometer built in.

[QuarterMaster]

Yea thanks to Ed I took a closer look at Frsky 900mhz receivers. Some of them have the same features as Frsky 2.4ghz receivers. The one 900mhz FrSky R9 STAB OTA 900mhz receiver has built-in 3-axis gyroscope and 3-axis accelerometer. and it has 8 physical channels and a few others internally from the spec I see. It looks like a 2.4ghz receiver where they swapped out the 2.4ghz and added 900mhz. I am sure some of the other Frsky 900mhz they make are just as good. All I was saying to Steve was If you have two receivers and they both do the exact same thing and both send telemetry, why do you need one for the surface(periscope depth) and one for underwater. I would like to thank Ed again as I didn't know Frsky had a 900mhz receiver with a gyro and a accelerometer built in.

A lot of good Hardware now.

As for me, I like the redundancy of both frequency's as it fits my needs.

It's dictated by 95% of my running environment, and a 75%/25% needs of my Fleet.

Only a 1/4 of my Fleet really require 900Mhz, and would be installed as such.
PROTEUS
Disney NAUTILUS
Krick U25
Thunder Tiger NEPTUNE

I would only run them in environments I can clearly see them, IE: A pool, and Event Like Cohutta, Groton or Carmel.

The rest of my Fleet, especially my go to boats, run in the an environment not suited for running below PD. It is this requirement I'm forced to run in 95% of the time. As you know I run every other weekend.

This is Texas Tea, with fast boats and sailboats. I need to run far (80-100 meters). I lose sight of my scope at only 30 meters, pucker factor peaks. She's about 2m off the dock here.



Kudos to those with clear water, I doubt they'd want to run here with me more than a foot off the dock submerged below PD.

So....


By sticking with say, a FrySky ARCHER PLUS SR10+ ($55) which has all those bells and whistles, and extending the 2.4Ghz antenna as I always have, I can run with no issues, and know I have no issues, as long as I can see the scope! Sailing at PD far from the surface craft shenanigans.

Murphy's Law is a "Clear and Present Danger" in my life. I've lost one boat, I won't lose another.

NOW, add a second RX to the system as the redundant, a $26 R9 MM-OTA, through SBUS in, this is backup. All for $71 + Tax/shipping. Now when I bring any boat like this to Cohutta and the like, I CAN DIVE below PD. For the Tandem RX I think the TD SR12, 12Ch stabilized is @ $120ish, the 18CH at $160. I did buy the Tandem for flexibility, allowing my son and I to run my boats simultaneously. Besides TX redundancy helps after driving 20 hours to an Event!


Okay, why have both frequencies aboard?

I've reached as far as 130m or so at PD with 2.4Ghz for one thing, I like that to steer clear of others. But in all honesty, the lighting has to be right lol. The other, more important thing?

I like the built in fail safe of 2.4Ghz needing to be at PD.

Remember the Buoyancy lecture I gave a few weeks ago? Keep the new boat, or boats out in the wild, positively buoyant. That's an inherent failsafe.

Well guess what? 2.4Ghz is an INHERENT failsafe for your $2k pride and joy! The system, and by definition, you, are forced to stay close to PD because if you drift below, the failsafe will kick in, gliding right back up, and if it's real trouble, blowing a tank 5-10s later.

In fact 95% of the time, for 75% of my boats, I probably WON'T need to bring the R9M at all.

The one day a year I hit Cohutta, Carmel, Groton, I can take those members of my fleet to Test Depth using the 900Mhz Redundant RX automatically. That btw is only 3 days a year for me. 2.4Ghz improves the odds for me

This works for me, I don't give a $#*! what others do or don't do to be honest, because THIS fills MY needs, MY requirements, MY sailing environment, MY boats, MY sailing style. If it doesn't suit you, or you think another method does, kudos! Do it, prove it, write about it, you have Neptune's blessing!

I'm just sharing all this because I made a promise to people like Skip, Dave and others to always share what I do so others may follow.

Whether they do or not, that's their wheelhouse.

[Sinksalot]

Ok this is what I am going to do. As I switched my thunder Tiger Neptune back to 75mhz as its going to a new home down south soon, I dont have that to test with any more. I going back to using a clear waterproof box. But this time I wont use little red flags to see the servos move. I will do what you did with the lights. Also I will use a thin rope to lower the box down into the black water. I will mark the rope every one foot so I dont have to guess how deep it went. If i wait till the sun goes down a little, I should be see the lights go on easier. I believe the little dock were the boats go in is 8 or 10 feet deep, i will try it there. I just want to see how deep it will work. I will test at 500mW, 1000mW and then I will test the Max power of the module. Oh hell I may as well test the failsafe and the beacon mode to see if the transmitter will point me to where the receiver is.

[Subculture]

Just a note that you can use these modules with lower cost kit- e.g. a FRSKY QX7 set is quite reasonable and very powerful. Doesn't have a massive colour display, but does have a very clear backlit monochrome LCD that's usually easier to see in the sunshine and gives you up to 24 channels- that's enough isn't it? Also good competing sets from the likes of Jumper and Radiomaster.

[SubDude]

Ed, concerning the inherent fail safe of 2.4 I totally agree but if I am understanding it correctly the X20S is "simultaneous" dual band meaning the moment that 2.4 looses signal it relies on 900 so then where does failsafe kick in? After it looses signal to the 900 or is it programmable to kick in if it looses the 2.4? If so then why have the 900 in a dual band radio? From what I see and read, it is not an either or situation but I do not have a TX sitting in front of me to evaluate so just trying to understand. I realize you want fail safe to kick in right away if the antenna dips below the surface but I am not sure the X20S works that way? I am speaking from the perspective of using the TD R10 Rx. Are you talking about using different Rx's for different situations? In other words, a 2.4 Rx for the typical pond water and a 900 Rx for clearer conditions? A BLM blows ballast after signal loss which can happen quite deep on 75. I venture to guess potentially deeper than 900. The joy of the more modern radio is the functionality and programmability of it meaning fail safe can be made to alter more than just one channel. The X20S is supposed to be able to reach out up to 100km. I don't think that range comes from the 2.4 but maybe I am misunderstanding? I just want to understand the big picture here and I appreciate what you have done with 2.4 and now the work you are doing with 900 and how you are sharing what you learn. I am trying to fill in the gaps in my brain about 900. Someone please help me understand.

[QuarterMaster]

Ok this is what I am going to do. As I switched my thunder Tiger Neptune back to 75mhz as its going to a new home down south soon, I dont have that to test with any more. I going back to using a clear waterproof box. But this time I wont use little red flags to see the servos move. I will do what you did with the lights. Also I will use a thin rope to lower the box down into the black water. I will mark the rope every one foot so I dont have to guess how deep it went. If i wait till the sun goes down a little, I should be see the lights go on easier. I believe the little dock were the boats go in is 8 or 10 feet deep, i will try it there. I just want to see how deep it will work. I will test at 500mW, 1000mW and then I will test the Max power of the module. Oh hell I may as well test the failsafe and the beacon mode to see if the transmitter will point me to where the receiver is.

AND, your going to VIDEO and write all this up for us. Right?

Next weekend I'll have the ARCHER PLUS SR10+ 2.4Ghz with the R9 MM-OTA for the redundant 900Mhz set up on the SHARK for open water testing. Can't this weekend as I'm heading to Houston tis weekend to help Bob with his setup, and the SHARK will be running at "Fit'z Fun Float".

Redundancy Example (Testing): FrSky ARCHER R8 Pro + R9 MX Redundancy Setup Failover Testing


She's been running like clockwork on the JETI and I want some Setup/Test time between runs.

More to follow.

[QuarterMaster]

Ed, concerning the inherent fail safe of 2.4 I totally agree but if I am understanding it correctly the X20S is "simultaneous" dual band meaning the moment that 2.4 looses signal it relies on 900 so then where does failsafe kick in? After it looses signal to the 900 or is it programmable to kick in if it looses the 2.4? If so then why have the 900 in a dual band radio? From what I see and read, it is not an either or situation but I do not have a TX sitting in front of me to evaluate so just trying to understand. I realize you want fail safe to kick in right away if the antenna dips below the surface but I am not sure the X20S works that way. A BLM blows ballast after signal loss which can happen quite deep on 75. I venture to guess potentially deeper than 900. The joy of the more modern radio is the functionality and programmability of it meaning fail safe can be made to alter more than just one channel. The X20S is supposed to be able to reach out up to 100km. I don't think that range comes from the 2.4 but maybe I am misunderstanding? I just want to understand the big picture here and I appreciate what you have done with 2.4 and now the work you are doing with 900 and how you are sharing what you learn. I am trying to fill in the gaps in my brain about 900.

Ohhhhh..,.I hear you! New fangled radios. I've learned sooooo much my head hurts!


Here's my understanding thus far....

1-We need to forget what we learned with 75Mhz, unlearn those habits.

2-These radios, the TANDEM or HORUS, can run 2.4, 900, or 2.4/900 simultaneously by setting up the model in the menu. I infer that in the above testing video. in FACT, you can have 3 receivers on board. Drones, Helicopter and Aircraft hobbyist are driving this.

3-Once a model is set up for the first time, you can clone it and change the receivers, (IE SSN-591 Dual, SSN-591 2.4, SSN-591 900) if you SO desire depending on the operating environment. OR NOT, your choice!! For example: Two model Settings for one Boat (SSN-591 Dual [Clear water], SSN-591 2.4 [Swamp running]. Now when running the swamp and I lose sight, the 2.4 only will engage LOS Failsafe earlier. But at Cohutta I can select SSN-59 Dual and the boat wont rise immediately allowing me to cruise at depth and the F/S is greatly delayed.

4-You can back these model settings up to your PC, and I believe copy them to another radio! So I have a Tandem; a Horus. Now both have the two setups for the 591, the ALFA the VANGUARD, the 212A etc. Now at a major event like Cohutta, I can hand my son either TX, and he can chase me with the ALFA as I run my SHARK on either radio!

5-The failsafe kicks in WHEN and HOW you want it. Because YOU program it. (NO BLM required of course)
A: My current 2.4 Failsafe (all my 2.4 boats) : 0 seconds, ALL STOP, Full Rise Bow/Fairwater and Stern Planes. 9 Sec, Emergency Blow
Since she's at or close to PD, hopefully she coasts up and regains signal BEFORE she uses gas. Happens to me quite often, if it wasn't for the LOS alert I wouldn't realize it happened and continue on my way.
B:My planned (TBD) 900 Mhz, (follow Traditional 75Mhz FS method); 0 seconds, ALL STOP, 5 Sec Emergency Blow
Since she may be "at depth", I want the blow to come more quickly.

SO it is my understanding, based on the video in my immediate previous post, you set the FS to operate upon the condition you want.

Model operating in the swamp at 2.4ghz, "A" is the setup. You try not to wander below PD and lose signal.

Model operating at Cohutta on dual freq "B" is the setup. She already lost 2.4 at depth, so having that "A" is meaningless, "B" works should something occur in fresh water.

It's all about application. If you only operate a Thunder Tiger Neptune in your pool, why bother having a failsafe anyway? Jump in and get it. Same can be said for Carmel or Cohutta!

I want maximum flexibility for maximum running environments. I'm as much about operating my boat as building it. All this goes a long way in a $1500/1200 mile trip to Cohutta. I don't waste that on the bench, period. I'm the guy running my boats or running around to see all my friends.

I also like run where most of you lady's dare not go lol!



Over the next two moths or so, Bob and I plan to flesh this all out and have a seminar at SubFest, hopefully Bob can record it. Hopefully that will help your above questions and gain familiarity with it.

I plan to generate flow charts for the ETHOS system strictly for the RC Sub setup, hopefully with accompanying videos so even a 70 y/o can do it.

I had Bob create a new radio forum where we can all round robin and share this, including the Setup files after they're established and proven on this radio system. If you prefer a different or less expensive system, put up or shut up on the forums. By that I mean do it, test it ,and bring it for everyone to use it. Don't just suggest.

We need to do this together.

Look, we can agree there are no guarantees in life, everyone has opinions.

For the record...

1-I am NOT telling you what you should/should not do. I could not care less regarding the argument on 75 vs 2.4 .vs 900. Or if it can't dive below PD it's not a sub, the argument people use to bolster their ego by arguing. Who cares what someone considers a real RC sub is? GTFU.

2-I am only documenting what I do for MY requirements. The How to, the WHY to, the proof of. Needs are as different as people, find yours.

3-I simply as that you have Great Faith, Great Doubt, and Great determination. So find out for yourself what works, and doubt what's told to you, especially by me.