New 1/144 Revell sub kit r/c conversion packages for 2010

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Jim,

Great, level-headed observations there. I would love to argue some of the above and call you names and such, but you gave me nothing to work with!

Yeah, the trick is to find a 'universally' appealing hull, find a plastic model kit of it in the right scale, produce the fittings kit so even a dope can assemble it, and price it to sell. That's the trick, now, isn't it. Still poking around ... we'll find the right combination. One thing is for sure: You're right about the majority (the norm) of people running these things in pools, so we have to come up with a package that runs in a pool effectively.

This guy on the payroll, Mike? Damn good analysis. No rose-colored glasses there.

David,

[Subculture]

Kit this. Not only will it appeal to submariners, it will also catch the eye of flyers and whirlybird pilots.

Dynamic diver, aquabatic, futuristic looking. Minimal details, could be designed in such a way that no glueing operations are required.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You might have something there, Andy.

In fact, Darrin Hataway produced and shared with me a GRP copy of just that vehicle he researched and reduced to a kit. Food for thought. Might fit the bill.

David,

[Subculture]

Did he?

Artful bugger. I know he did the Deepflight 1, but I didn't know he'd done the Super Falcon as well.

Got any pictures?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I stand corrected, I didn't know the difference, I think what I have here (in the shed awaiting its turn at the shop) is the DeepFlight 1. Sorry. Don't think he did the Falcon. Anyway, it's got wings.

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Struggling mightily to get this thread back on track ...

Just to shut Jim up I finished the basic work on the new 1/144 Revell Type-214 submarine replacement propeller master.

The kit propeller, though close to looking like what hangs off the ass-end of the prototype does, on closer examination, have way too much cord thickness near the hub, and the blades are way too thick. Yes, the kit supplied propeller will produce some thrust, but a lot of that torque energy will be lost as turbulence and the excessive blade area gives us a propeller that would excessively load down the direct-drive 280 size motor used in the little SubDriver needed for this tiny model kit. Bite me, brushless motor people!

God! does this mean Skip will jump this thread and hit me with the gear-your-drive-train speech? Again! Somebody, anybody: kill me now.

Anyway ...

To make the propeller master I first had to come up with a sketch of the propeller blade -- one with substantially less cord, yet capturing the shape of the propeller blades seen on the kit box (some great reference material there!) and in videos of the real boats you can catch on YouTube. For some great video of this boat out of the water, start with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9LY...eature=related

I then plotted out a blade chart to determine the degree of helical twist needed for a blade possessing a pitch 1/2 of the propellers diameter -- I went with this very low pitch (typically I make my marine propellers with a pitch that about equals the propellers diameter) to further unload the motor. The objective of the entire exercise is to achieve a replacement propeller that will be reasonably efficient and will present a much lower load on the motor than the kit supplied wheel.

I carved a single blade master out of RenShape, made a high-temp RTV rubber tool from it, cast up a bunch of white-metal blade blanks, assembled those blades to a RenShape hub, and wa-la! a new propeller master. Tomorrow I build up small radius fillets between blades and hub, clean things up, prim the beast, then make a production RTV tool from which fittings kit white metal propellers will be cast. There! Happy, Jim?

Nothing to it.

Damn I'm good!

David,

[Outrider]

Significant improvement. Happy indeed.

[Kazzer]

I only hope and wish that we could persuade The Wiz to produce these props separately from the Fittings Kits. He has a phenomenal range of props in The Cave, mostly collecting dust, because the actual mold is integrated with all the other metal parts associated with the particular model the kit is designed for. Need a prop? Gotta buy the entire Fittings Kit. Bugger up a prop, buy the Fittings Kit. As we have progressed in our marketing, the need for replacement props is now more prominent.

The other down side currently is that Merriman's White Metal is reported as being a little soft and the preference is for brass or bronze. However, I think this could easily be overcome by nickel and brass plating the white metal (a fairly easy process with our Plug 'n Plate Kits.)

Currently I've been selling Raboesch props, but I have to order a truck load and it makes doing business difficult. I have been approached by The Chinese and a US business to supply bronze/brass props, but they are significantly more expensive than the White Metal ones. So, whilst everyone is yelling 'Yea - I want brass/bronze etc. etc" the truth is that when presented with the price, they'll scuttle off into the corner to suck the corner of their blanket.

'Merriman's Metal' may be a little soft for a prop, but if David were to gang half a dozen props together in a mold, he'd be able to churn them out for next to nothing. Me adding hundreds of percent greedy profits to 'next to nothing' would hardly effect the price and everyone would get a cheap prop. Ding it up, buy another! Want it tougher, plate it with nickel, then bronze.

There are some companies who sell low temp metals for jewelry production, and maybe alloying experimentation here might also solve the problem. We used to sell a small casting kit with sand etc. and a really good book on casting small parts. I think we may have some copies left somewhere.


There were mentions of different alloys in here, but it was a while ago I sat down and read this book. Where is my copy? Probably in one of the dozens of boxes I haven't opened since 'The Move'.

[Subculture]

Based on Prop Shop prices (my first port of call for a model prop) £10-30 ($20-60) is the going rate dependant on size and complexity. That's for a fully polished and machined prop. Simon will supply you with a raw casting to fettle for yourself if you want to save a couple of quid.

If the cost is more than this, folk will leave them to collect dust on the shelf.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

And that, as they say, is that. Thanks, Andy.

David,

[Outrider]

Excellent points, Mike. White metal isn't an ideal solution in terms of durability, but it's still OK. Want durability, go for machined billet titanium as is used in the vanes of a gas turbine engine. But we all know why that's just not realistic for an RC sub. Maybe if David would go brushless and get us the kind of speed that needs heat tolerance...

Meanwhile, back in the real world... Brass is often the (economically sensible) material of choice for props at any scale, but David has explained why it's hard for him to go brass. Your points about alternate sourcing of brass props make sense to me--high effort, low yield. If the market were big enough, outsourcing brass might make sense. That tipping point is down the road.

Plating is an intriguing idea and something that makes sense to raise given Caswell's "other" line of business. I think there are plenty of end users who don't want to fool with the acid bath on the white metal props or who simply would want something ready to install when the original prop becomes unserviceable. These customers (myself likely among them) would be thrilled to get a hold of a pre-plated prop--as long as the price didn't get too high. (I think Mike is dead on the money regarding the sales potential of an expensive brass prop.)

Given the options, I'd want to be able to be able to purchase a pre-plated white metal prop. Cheap enough and "plug-n-play" work wonders.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I cleaned up the propeller master, used it to make the production tool, and went about the task of casting up a bunch of production white-metal propellers for the little 1/144 Revell, Type-214.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

To be fair, it was I who badgered The Wizard to spend weeks of his time making the 1.25" cylinders for the Revel Skipjack. I was wrong, he was right, maybe the market isn't ready for this?

Re-reading this thread I came across this chestnut. With the passage of some time since the little SKIPJACK SubDriver effort I must say that the investment in energy and time to come up with the 1.25" diameter SubDriver is going to eventually pay dividends -- concurrent with the SKIPJACK work I also developed the peripherals needed to adapt this small diameter cylinder to the 'larger' plastic model submarine kits out there.

The market is ready, we just have not found the subject and the scale that will blow everyone's skirt up. I think this medium sized 1/144 Type-214 will be the winner Mike and I have been looking for.

David,

[Outrider]

I like the basic Revell 1:144 214 kit. It seems accurate, but, even if a few rivets are misplaced, the parts fit together well and the surface detail is clean and crisp. I also think it's a nice size for pool use.

Given the guts are similar to the little Skipjack, I'm hopeful the pricing will be similar--and similar to RC Helis, which have sold very well in this price range (e.g. TREX 250, TREX 450), despite the helis being more complex to operate and being far, far more prone to catastrophe.

IMHO these are great starting points--necessary, actually--but not on their own sufficient for broad success outside the cabal. It's also got to be easy to put together and then to set up and operate. I don't think an RTF (ready -to-fly) set-up is necessary, but a one click order with everything, perhaps less the transmitter, wouldn't hurt.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

And that is the crux of the problem: we don't offer RTR stuff; it all requires some assembly, set-up, maintenance, and operating skill. Today's crop of American's are lazy, unskilled, and endowed with some terrible sense that it should all be handed to them on a platter, no work on their part involved or invited. Don't think so? Go to the local r/c flying field -- ask the guys on the flight-line if they built the aircraft they drive around. Even more disappointing ask them if they trimmed their own airplane, or did they get the resident 'expert' to do it for them?

No Craftsman anymore. Just (F word used) idiot, mouth-breathing, tobacco juice dribbling Drivers.

David,