New 1/144 Revell sub kit r/c conversion packages for 2010

[Outrider]

A Prop, a Prop, My Kingdom for a Metal Prop

Not pushing. I just think you'd be a lot more proud of your kit if it had a durable and accurate white metal screw on the tail.

Propellers are not easily made by just anyone... remember that Zeus didn't buy his lightning bolts at Wal-Mart, and they weren't made of polystyrene. It took a god to forge Zeus's weapons, even if he (Hephaestus) wasn't the most glorious face in the Pantheon.

Enough with the mythology, though. You know what "must" be done...

JFC

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Damn you!

(I start the blade master tonight).

Though the profile of the kits propeller is pretty good, the blades are a bit on the thick side, and a bit too wide of span. Also, since this is more blade area than I want driven by a direct-drive 250 sized motor, I'll halve the pitch from the norm -- instead of pitch = diameter, I'll work the blade chart to achieve a pitch that's half the diameter. That'll unload the motor considerably.

Any other metal parts I should consider for this fittings kit?

David,

[Outrider]

These 214s are so clean, I don't think there's anything more that's needed in metal. 'Scopes would be nice, but might be hard to do at this scale.

JFC

[Kazzer]

Arghh! It's those glasses again! The way they look at you!
Then I realised, Merriman is also employed by Geico - The insurance company.

15 minutes could save you 15% or more on your car insurance.

No wonder those torpedoes are taking so long!

[Subculture]

Ever considered offering a range of your props investment cast in silicone bronze (like prop shop)?

Your props are nice, but I'm not a fan of white metal for this sort of thing- one chink against something hard, and they're toast.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You're absolutely right, Andy. Time permitting (and when the cash becomes available) I'll do the investment casting here. I've been waiting all these years awaiting a 1200 degree tolerant RTV mold making rubber ... ain't happened yet. So, looks like I'll have to bite the bullet, go old-school, and go the traditional route for casing the high-temp. metals.

Nice thing is, the way I've designed my white-metal tools, I can use those to shoot the wax models needed for this brass line of propellers you're suggesting.

David,

[Outrider]

Hmm... If only there were a corporate backer close by... Deep enough pockets, venture capitalist maybe. Loves R/C subs. Can even part the waters before they freeze... Naah, Mister. Nobody like that 'round these parts... ; )

While we're waiting for brass, I was wondering if David is doing a 1:144 U-212 prop in white metal, too. Seems like a good time to economize on effort.

Andy, that was a great question.. Brass is way more durable than white metal. I also wondered if there's something in a polymer that might be suitably strong for this type of application. Delrin might fit the bill, but I think it's unlikely to fit into David's workflow. As I understand it, most Delrin parts aren't cast, but rather get machined into shape, something that probably requires a big investment. (CAD/CAM and a Five Axis Milling machine probably would be very nice for this application). My guess is that David would be on the look out for something that's better than white metal, as he's probably a bit tired of getting hit by flying molten blobs of it...

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Well ... that was a subtle warning shot through the bridge windows. Hope Mr. Caswell appreciates it. Nice.

I did some part-time help on behalf of a local Jeweler, working the back room. So, I know the equipment I need and how to use it. Trouble is I only have a one-car garage as a work space here and my floor-table space is fully occupied as it is. And I'm not about to stick burn-out ovens and oxy-acetylene equipment out in one of the sheds. And I'm loath to trust my masters and tools to 'strangers' for off site casting; I've tried using metal-casters before and in each case I got burned (sorry) in way or another in the transaction. This stuff will have to wait till I can enlarge the shop. Maybe in a a year or two. Hang in there -- white metal ain't that bad, guys.

Yeah, you pushed me over the edge. I'm doing a proper propeller for the 1/144, type- 214, in white metal ... I assume you meant 214, not 212.

CNC'ed production propellers!? ... you made out of money?! I can cast them from resin, but you would then have prop blades that break instead of bend. Your choice: pick one.

David,

[Subculture]

A plastic prop offers no advantage over a metal one, except in terms of weight.

As props are thin and low in mass, this isn't an issue. I would think a silicone bronze prop will be lighter than a white metal one, aluminium would be lighter still and exhibits lower shrinkage but would be nowhere near as strong.

Investment casting is the way to go. Low(ish) cost in terms of tooling, but with excellent results.

I think Dave already has a propller for the 212 in white metal, he did one for Adam quite some time back if my memory serves me correctly.

Dave maybe you should have a word with Bob Martin. He has someone doing the big nautilus props in brass and aluminium.

[Outrider]

Re: your Angel Venture Capitalist... figured it was worth a try. He seems to appreciate quality and I doubt you'd put out a brass prop that either of you wouldn't like.

Actually, the 212 wasn't a typo. I knew you were working the 214, but with the photos of the 1:144 212 on the Caswell web site indicating a future product based on the Revell 1:144 kit U-212 and all... Well I just got to thinkin' about the fine work you did on the white metal prop for the 1:96 212, and I thought you might just want to get ahead on the 1:144 212 since you were pouring hot metal. It's not like you are a mere mortal and need sleep and stuff... ; )

Bend is way better than break, especially if it bends back.

Some plastics are better than some metals for the prop application. Cast aluminum, for example, tends to snap rather than bend--not so good. By comparison, a few plastics are reasonably elastic as well as stiff. David would probably say of these plastics... "Stiff, elastic, easy to work with, cheap. Your choice: pick two."

Happy to have the white metal props. Don't think anything different because I see the merits of some alternatives. The excellent need not be the enemy of the good.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

A plastic prop offers no advantage over a metal one, except in terms of weight.

As props are thin and low in mass, this isn't an issue. I would think a silicone bronze prop will be lighter than a white metal one, aluminium would be lighter still and exhibits lower shrinkage but would be nowhere near as strong.

Investment casting is the way to go. Low(ish) cost in terms of tooling, but with excellent results.

I think Dave already has a propller for the 212 in white metal, he did one for Adam quite some time back if my memory serves me correctly.

Dave maybe you should have a word with Bob Martin. He has someone doing the big nautilus props in brass and aluminium.

Investment casting is very expensive compared to low temperature casting that is done is silicon or natural rubber molds. Investment casting: The big expense is TIME. And the burn-out oven uses a LOT of electricity, and then there is the investment ceramic itself and the wax model -- lost with each shot.

I did two propellers for the 1/96 Type-212, the six and seven-blade versions.

Damn good idea, Andy. I'll give Bob a jingle on that.

David,

[Kazzer]

Damn you!

(I start the blade master tonight).

Any other metal parts I should consider for this fittings kit?

David,

One job at a time pal! Let's see the damned torpedoes finished. And will you buggers STOP distracting him! Focus here ----- TORPEDOES!!!!!!!

(Goodness knows why we're messin' with this stupid Revell POS toilet bowl submarine that only two of you will buy! I still have a shelf full of Revell Skipjacks everyone wanted that no body actually wants. God******t! )

I've had two or three people offer to make us bronze props and it fell on stony ground, so why the sudden fascination? EH? Bugger the props, focus where the real market is - unless I got it completely wrong and none of you really want TORPEDOES? EH! Eh?

Good grief. You're like a lot of schoolkids! Grrr, mutter, #*!@#!!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

That puts a lid on it, boy's and girl's.

David,

[Kazzer]

To be fair, it was I who badgered The Wizard to spend weeks of his time making the 1.25" cylinders for the Revel Skipjack. I was wrong, he was right, maybe the market isn't ready for this?

[Outrider]

Finding the Right Product

The $64,000 question for you is "what will sell?" For me, it's what will excite me enough to buy. (That said, it's obvious that there's a shared joy in R/C subs--my sense is that this could be a profitable hobby, but that this could never become an Industry.)

You do well in asking people what they want. (It's something I appreciate.) I think that polling requires many iterations, though. And, unfortunately, things do change. For example, bad news about the economy doesn't necessarily help sales, since these are mostly luxury items. So when people said they wanted something (e.g. the mini Skipjack), I can understand why they may have changed their minds.

I think that the smaller subs have a market, even if the Skipjack has thusfar disappointed. "Skippy" costs about $400 in kit form, about $300 of that in electronics. That's actually a pretty good price point. But it is a lot of work to translate the parts into a practical RC. And, though small, it's not by any means simple, unless you're something of a Wizard...

My sense is that these things will drive sales:

• The right kit. Right here is complex, because "right" is like "pretty", hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Problem is that "pretty" is in the eye of the beholder. You like British subs and have pulled out some novel bits of history with the M-1 and other innovative (if not entirely successful) ideas that the Royal Navy explored in the WWI era. I like modern subs and some of the novel WWII (e.g. I-20, I-53, I-400) and cold war (e.g. Regulus conversions) subs. My son likes Type VIIs and torpedoes. (I hear you like torpedoes, too.) Who's right? Don't know. After all, you're interested in the people who aren't buying, not the ones (like me) who are.
  
• The right size. The Goldilocks conundrum. For many, pool operations are going to be the norm. Can't be too small, can't be too big. I don't know that the issue with "Skippy" is related to lack of size. Sure, it's too small for distant ops in murky waters, but in a pool like you showed in your video, it seems nicely sized. So what's the right size? For many who will be operating in a pool, something much bigger than three feet seems impractical, even if the 13 inch Skipjack is too small. (IMHO, that Skipjack is flawed by sub-par moldings that require a lot of work and by the need for more thorough instructions. Size seems less of a factor, at least to me, since it adds to the places I can use it as compared with bigger units.)
  
• Ease of assembly. Tough one. Other than experienced submarine modelers, these things are not easily and quickly built. Things have changed. It used to be that there were models (Revell, Monogram, etc) for sale all over the place. Now, they're only in the LHS and on the web. Kids just don't build static models any more, and, in a world of PlayStations and X-boxes, they rarely seem to see or make the opportunity. No kids, no new customers. But if you want to sell, you need new customers. New customers are (generally) novice by definition, so if you want to grow, you've got to address their abilities. I don't think it's possible to make a beginner's kit too easy. But I think it's essential to make a few kits that are very easy--practically turnkey--if you want to grow your audience. I also know it's hard to do this. (Design and instructions are key.)
  
• Cheap enough. I know it's hard to do this, too. David needs to make a living and you need to show some return. But a great product that's outside the budget will sit on the shelf. My opinion is that it's got to be below $500 to meet this threshold.

Keep plugging away--you'll find the right product eventually. The D&E 1:96 U-212 was a nice surprise. It's a quality kit, and a bargain for what it is, but it's not entry level in terms of price ($1K) and required skills (many static modelers haven't worked much, or at all, with GRP.) I think the 214 will come in a lower price and will have a lower required skills barrier. Tough to know whether it's the type of kit that would excite sales, but it's sized nicely for the pool. Of course, David has devised a SubDriver that's pretty adaptable, so if the U-214 isn't "pretty" enough you have a good basis for another try.