Weathering the 1/96 Type-212 Kit

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

A light mist of lightened base-color below the waterline, with a hint of green from waterline to about three feet below waterline.

David,

[reddevil]

I've finished an AKULA II. The hull is painted and with decals applied, and now I'm thinking about weathering it a bit, just enough to make her looking real. Some pictures I've examinated seems to offer a submarine which hull doesn't has much effects of weathering, at least as it seems at medium distance. The hull is also streamlined and with few protrudes. Any suggestion?

Merry Christmas.
Juan Carlos.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

A very, very light touch with the rust. Less is more.

[Albion]

No not messing up the welds on Thresher, was just a thought bouncing around my hea dwhilst i was working on it. Im trying to get it in the scribe marks just to huighlight the details

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Don't go crazy with the rust weathering at welded seams on the THRESHER. Remember: as first of the class, the THRESHER was a 'show-boat' and was almost always in a high state of preservation.

Also, know this about How things are stuck together on post-war American Submarines: Most of the pressure hull and superstructure welds are deep, multi pass fills into well beveled unions, the excess beading later ground down flush with the adjoining plating. Not much opportunity for rust to gather in these 'seamless' areas.

(And, for you nit-pickers out there: Yes, it was a bad metal union that killed the THRESHER. But, it was likely a bum brazing job, not a weld that failed. Two different metal joining systems: welding is a fusing of two like metals. Brazing is akin to soldering, an adhesive bond between two metals through the plating of a lower melting third between them).

American boats are well maintained; most of what you'll see are streaking effects from running water mixing with salt, oil, and bird-****.

Look over your research photos: you'll be hard pressed to identify any significant localized rusting or rust streaking on American ships-of-the-line.

David,

[Albion]

After posting i did think to say about the risk of abrasion too, thanks. As per your earlier examples, obviously the most common rusting is going to be in areas where the paint is worn away, hatches, handles walkways etc etc.

As regards the electrolysis i guess it could be. I have noticed welds starting to rust within days of the welds, and thats with the piece just sat around in the workshop, so maybe its a bit of both.

Really the point of this was, rather than thinking i have seen this model or that model with rust on the seams, so i will put it there on mine, too understand why it is rusting there, so you can apply as you see fit, rather than "cut and paste".

Albion, having fun with oil based burnt sienna

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Albion,

Dan just stole my thunder.

Gee ... THANKS, Dan.

Another reason that weld beads (unless ground down flush with the work) become a source of rust is that the bead itself stands proud of the surrounding metal. Its protective coating is easily abraded off exposing the raw metal to the elements.

Good observation, Albion, and most appropriate to the thread.

David,

[roedj]

Albion,

Is there any possibility that the rust starts due to electrolysis between dissimilar metals in the weld and the substrate?

Dan

[Albion]

Why do welds rust first?

Apologies if this isnt the right place to post this, however it sort of goes with the content of the thread, and im using this one to research my own above water weathering, and thought this little chemical reaction was a useful nugget.

During my fist year as an apprentice we had to make things out of metal, filing, drilling turning, and welding. I noticed that my nice clean (ahem) welds would a couple of days later start to rust up, although the rest of the metal was still shiney. As the welds cools it draws in moisture from the surrounding air and this kicks of the oxidisation process. Even if you slap paint on a day later without any sign of rust yet, the process is already in motion and rust will bubble up from under the paint.

Today in car manaufacturing, and engineering in general we clean up the surfaces to be painted by blast cleaning or some other system prior to applying the paint and ensure a good bond of paint to metal.

However on older vessels and in a war environment this cleaning up isnt going to have happened and welds are one of the areas which are going to show early signs of rust.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David,

At the risk of asking too many questions - I have another one.

I found all of the aforementioned DuPont products at usautopaint-dot-com and yes they're not cheap but what the hell. Mattos is a Mid-Atlantic PA to FL chain.

Are you saying that I can use my railroad Floquil and Polly-S paints for the color "look" followed by some of your weathering techniques if I then seal the whole thing with the DuPont Chroma Clear system?

Or, do you have a recommendation as to what paint to use for the color look as well? I have looked through several of your cabal reports but cannot find where you list the brand nor type of paint you use.

Dan

Dan,

You would test compatibility of your Floquil undercoats to the ChromaClear overcoat on a test article. If compatible, you're good to go. However the solvents in the Chroma paints and clear systems I think are too hot for the Floquil undercoats. The Poly-S will be fine.

The paints I use is the two-part ChromaColor system available from the same source you identified.

David,

[roedj]

Last question (until the next one)

David,

At the risk of asking too many questions - I have another one.

I found all of the aforementioned DuPont products at usautopaint-dot-com and yes they're not cheap but what the hell. Mattos is a Mid-Atlantic PA to FL chain.

Are you saying that I can use my railroad Floquil and Polly-S paints for the color "look" followed by some of your weathering techniques if I then seal the whole thing with the DuPont Chroma Clear system?

Or, do you have a recommendation as to what paint to use for the color look as well? I have looked through several of your cabal reports but cannot find where you list the brand nor type of paint you use.

Dan

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You are the best sort of brain-picker, Dan. You ask intelligent, relevant and pointed questions. One reason I tolerate your constant pestering and interruptions.

And yes, Jungleload, there ARE stupid questions. And by extension, stupid question askers! The very reasons we kicked your dumb, unaccomplished, on-the-public-dole-and-proud-of-it, ass off this site.

Where was I? ...

... Oh, yeah.

Being a long-time model railroad guy, Dan, you likely are comfortable with the Floquel brand of lacquers and PolyS line of water soluble bottled paints. All of which where recommended for spray-brush/gun application. Two systems that provided for some variance of the clear coats degree of reflectance or dullness. In the hands of experienced model railroad guys (and the top-end model railroad guys are masters of painting and weathering effects on both vehicles and structures) these products produce marvelous results in all scales. But, by and large, model railroad items are not in an out-of-doors environment, nor are the vehicles and structures subject to much handling (but, who does not enjoy the occasional commuter head-on or live-stock de-derailment at speed?!). These 'hobby' paints -- though the finest hobby paints one can find today -- are not suitable as a coating system for r/c ships or submarines. And when they are so used, the models quickly evidence scratches and paint failure, even on model ships and submarines that receive the maximum amount of care during storage, transport, and in-water use.

Todays hobby paints are not formulated to put abrasion resistance and UV desensitivity above the safety of the product. Hobby paints and clear coat systems are safe enough, and robust enough for static display models only. And in that capacity, in the hands of a skilled craftsman, those hobby paints can achieve remarkable results.

However, the hobby paints are all too often bought and miss-used by amateur morons. Some of whom would (and have) sue the manufacturers and the retailers, because the paint and/or clear-coat system sold could not be safely ingested through mouth, eye, ear, nose, anus, or IV drip. Some of these Darwin Award candidates have prevailed in tort court: turning a miss-use of a hobby product into a pay-day. The result: Todays hobby shops stock primers, fillers, putties, glues, paints, and tools that are SAFE, not USEFUL for the application intended.

Shakespeare was right.

You want a paint that sticks to just about everything and is as tough as nails when dried/cured? Or, do you want a paint that is safe.

Pick one!

OK, Dan. That out of the way, I'll move on to your questions.

1. ChromaClear is a two-part polyurethane system manufactured by DuPont. It's sold at automotive refinishing supply houses. A national franchise, the one I use here in Virginia is, Mattos. Gotta be one around you. I use the HC-7776S.

2. The catalyst, which is mixed with the clear, at a 1:4 ratio, is 7765S. Get the minimum quantities till you become comfortable with the system. Once mixed you'll have a pot-life of from 1-5 days, depending on how much you mix and the ambient temperature. The refrigerated mix will last a week or so before gelling. Only method of application recommended is by spray-brush/gun. This stuff is nasty, so use an air-line or charcoal mask.

3. The flattening agent is added to the mix after introducing the catalyst. You then add thinner (get the DuPont Lucite brand automotive acrylic lacquer thinner formulated for 'mild' temperature and humidity) till you get the desirable spray pattern and lay-down. The flattening agent is another DuPont product, and is called, Flattener 4531S and is EXPENSIVE!!!! But is like gold if you wish to get that perfect finish.

And that's the news from Lake Wobegone.

David,

[roedj]

Dan,

Yes, a protective clear coat goes down. But unlike those weak, crummy hobby shop or box-store rattle-can clear coats I use an automotive refinishing product called ChromaClear. Produced by the DuPont company. This two-part, polyurethane system goes down as a very bright clear coating. However, with the introduction of a separate 'flattening' agent you can control the brightness of the finish from anywhere between a 'satin' to a totally 'flat' clear finish.

David,

1) Chroma Clear - as sold by auto paint stores or where?

2) Two part - can I premix them and spray with an air brush. If so, what is the thinner/airbrush cleaner? Or applied by soft brush or ...?

3) flattening agent - also a DuPont product or ...? Applied separately or mixed in with Chroma Clear?

I have years of weathering/painting model trains but never, until now, had too much worry about my work going underwater.

Dan (a rabid brain picker)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David,

OK, thanks.

And then you seal the whole "look" up with a spray of Testor's Dullcote or something like that?

Dan

Dan,

Yes, a protective clear coat goes down. But unlike those weak, crummy hobby shop or box-store rattle-can clear coats I use an automotive refinishing product called ChromaClear. Produced by the DuPont company. This two-part, polyurethane system goes down as a very bright clear coating. However, with the introduction of a separate 'flattening' agent you can control the brightness of the finish from anywhere between a 'satin' to a totally 'flat' clear finish.

David,

[roedj]

David,

OK, thanks.

And then you seal the whole "look" up with a spray of Testor's Dullcote or something like that?

Dan