Water-Pump Ballast Systems

[toppack]

It's because, We truely Care, David. :D
*Band of Brothers in Arms*, an' all that rot. I'll drink to THAT!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I read all the cabels on the Seaview and a document on the Sub Driver for the Seaview that Ray pointed out to me, I believe.

I cannot thank you enough for going over time consuming discussions that deviate from a approach that you have pioneered and championed.

I know that the pressures of overload can be destructive.
You must feel like a man stretched, like stretch arm-strong and everyone wants a piece of you. At the same time fame is not neccessicarily fun nor does it allow for much peace from the papparatzi...

Being at the top of your field, hopefully a field that is growing in leaps in bounds, not only in those who wish to take up the hobby, but in possiblities due to minaturization of electronics and batteries, your going to get even more popular and even more busy.

Those who have followed your work in the shadows and have read your work, know that your words, are not your heart.

I would never take what Mr Merriman says in a negitive way.
He is old school, hard school and I appreciate that.
At the same time, this hard school geek, loved me and the hobby enough to deal with my indecision issues....issues I have from having a post concussion injury.

He makes me hesitate...and thats not bad at all...he makes me think critically, and he always asks me to suck it up. Some times he has even given in to my begging him to admit certain things. He is a genius in my opinion.

You know its not everyones cup of tea, but he does love us all.
You just need to remember that he hates emoticons...

Snort, LPB is state of the art.
A properly trimmed Seaview has functional bow planes.
I am still thinking about what he has taught me.
I am cutting on pieces of practice styrene.

I hope he knows that I have some back and forth issues over my brain injury far more then over any real world issue. So I for one thank Mr Merriman for putting up with work overload, question overload, and for taking time to still ALWAYS answer my questions.

I'll drink to THAT!

No matter how hard I hit you, some of you I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!s refuse to stay down.

What's wrong with you people?!....

David,

[junglelord]

I read all the cabels on the Seaview and a document on the Sub Driver for the Seaview that Ray pointed out to me, I believe.

I cannot thank you enough for going over time consuming discussions that deviate from a approach that you have pioneered and championed.

I know that the pressures of overload can be destructive.
You must feel like a man stretched, like stretch arm-strong and everyone wants a piece of you. At the same time fame is not neccessicarily fun nor does it allow for much peace from the papparatzi...

Being at the top of your field, hopefully a field that is growing in leaps in bounds, not only in those who wish to take up the hobby, but in possiblities due to minaturization of electronics and batteries, your going to get even more popular and even more busy.

Those who have followed your work in the shadows and have read your work, know that your words, are not your heart.

I would never take what Mr Merriman says in a negitive way.
He is old school, hard school and I appreciate that.
At the same time, this hard school geek, loved me and the hobby enough to deal with my indecision issues....issues I have from having a post concussion injury.

He makes me hesitate...and thats not bad at all...he makes me think critically, and he always asks me to suck it up. Some times he has even given in to my begging him to admit certain things. He is a genius in my opinion.

You know its not everyones cup of tea, but he does love us all.
You just need to remember that he hates emoticons...

Snort, LPB is state of the art.
A properly trimmed Seaview has functional bow planes.
I am still thinking about what he has taught me.
I am cutting on pieces of practice styrene.

I hope he knows that I have some back and forth issues over my brain injury far more then over any real world issue. So I for one thank Mr Merriman for putting up with work overload, question overload, and for taking time to still ALWAYS answer my questions.

I'll drink to THAT!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

It's worth pointing out that the miniature diaphragm pumps just weren't readily available up until fairly recently.

This would have meant a self-built pump, which would have pushed the price up quite a bit.

Water pumps on the other hand have been around for years, hence their widespread use- easy availability.

I deal with the here-and-now. Not the what-was, and what-if's of life.

Let's not get bogged down in historical review of what did and did not work back 'in the day'; doing so only muddies the water. Historical overview and debate is fine once you have a handle on the state-of-the-art. But, first you should get comfortable with what is now available and accepted.

The other boards get so bogged down in stupid *!*!*!*!. Lets not let it happen here, boys and girls.

Andy, John, me and other experts can work out how many angels fit on the head of a pin -- we're qualified to do so. But engaging in such debate in front of our newbee's only distracts them from the A,B,C's they should be studying right now.

I don't need the constant stupid question asking from the newbee's instigated by the sensory overload that this thread (and others) have given them.

I gotta find the time to put up a FAQ here so I can point the newbees there to study, rather than asking me how to separate U235 from U238 and other such fluff and non-sense.

Oh, wait! ... there is a FAQ of sorts here. The Cabal Reports!

Newbee's: read all the Cabal Reports before asking questions here.

David,

[Subculture]

It's worth pointing out that the miniature diaphragm pumps just weren't readily available up until fairly recently.

This would have meant a self-built pump, which would have pushed the price up quite a bit.

Water pumps on the other hand have been around for years, hence their widespread use- easy availability.

[toppack]

:D LOL :D

Gotta Love It! I'll drink to THAT!

[Kazzer]

ELLIE!

We need a little chat!!!!!!!

(just watch him collapse like the Armadillo Man in the Capital One advert!)

Armadillo man clip

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Aha! I see the new auto-sensor is working well! Now if only I can figure out the 'infractions and punishments' system.

We can have some wonderful punishments, like keelhauling, flogging, cat 'n nine tails, two bricks surgery (my favorite), eye gouging, the rack and a few other medieval routines. Oh! I almost forgot, hanging from the yard-arm.

Just behave boys, we have women and children on board! And you Merriman!

BLOODY DAMN!

David,

[Kazzer]

Aha! I see the new auto-sensor is working well! Now if only I can figure out the 'infractions and punishments' system. We can have some wonderful punishments, like keelhauling, flogging, cat 'n nine tails, two bricks surgery (my favorite), eye gouging, the rack and a few other medieval routines. Oh! I almost forgot, hanging from the yard-arm.

I'll just keep adding these morsels to the sensor system each time anyone uses them, or tries to by-pass the system, until you won't be able to read a thing.

Just behave boys, we have women and children on board! And you Merriman! Do you want me to have a little chat with Ellie?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Agree - yes we don't tend to go much deeper than PD.
But - I do like gas fitted too - Got to remember that a positive ballasted boat using dynamic forces to go under can sometimes not pop back up as we like should the boat go deeper enough - which can happen due to glitch or operational error. Not too much of an issue in the pool, but in blue water ops (like a lake) it can be.

J

Exactly!

And John's observations (derived from practical, real-world experience -- you newbee's listening?!) are the same ones that drove me to finally integrate the two real-world (most American submarines do this) methods of emptying a ballast tank: the normally used low pressure blower, taking advantage of surface air to force the water out of the ballast tank; and the gas blow to get the boat to the surface -- if need be.

Sure, there are other ways to change the displacement/weight of the boat to achieve surfaced and submerged trim: squeeze bags, belows, variable geometry WTC's, pistons, water pumps, reactive chemicals, and the like. All with unique and often burdensome hardware, electronics, and plumbing.

But I've found for efficiency, simplicity, reliability and achievement of task -- employing the minimum of on-board volume, complexity, and electricity -- the LPB-gas ballast system to be the best means of managing ballast water, even in the smallest r/c submarine.

Just like the real thing.

When I operate in deep water, I want the gas sub-system aboard.

You guys keep ***** this dog! For decades I've seen this debate: "what is the best ballast system". Jesus H ******! ... the debates over. Move on already!

Stop posting this useless navel-gazing bull-**** and build something!

David,

[Slats]

Exactly! Now, if we bear this in mind, why would you design something to go out of sight? Being a newbie at this, I have found that sometimes these 'clever folks' often over-design and over-engineer the problems, making construction and operation extremely difficult.

It was brought home to me when I operated my D&E Skipjack for the first time. A 4 ch radio, no forward planes and no gas in the tank, I was able to dive and surface at will on the move. If the boat stopped, it would surface. (Very comforting!) I never vented the ballast tank.The sail/forward planes were set horizontal and were not hooked up to a servo.

It gave me my much needed practice time.

Agree - yes we don't tend to go much deeper than PD.
But - I do like gas fitted too - Got to remember that a positive ballasted boat using dynamic forces to go under can sometimes not pop back up as we like should the boat go deeper enough - which can happen due to glitch or operational error. Not too much of an issue in the pool, but in blue water ops (like a lake) it can be.

J

[Kazzer]

----- Most submariners rarely dive beyond a couple of feet--

Exactly! Now, if we bear this in mind, why would you design something to go out of sight? Being a newbie at this, I have found that sometimes these 'clever folks' often over-design and over-engineer the problems, making construction and operation extremely difficult.

It was brought home to me when I operated my D&E Skipjack for the first time. A 4 ch radio, no forward planes and no gas in the tank, I was able to dive and surface at will on the move. If the boat stopped, it would surface. (Very comforting!) I never vented the ballast tank.The sail/forward planes were set horizontal and were not hooked up to a servo.

It gave me my much needed practice time.

[Kazzer]

I have prepared a document explaining the main ballast systems which can be downloaded from the Caswell web page. There are some diagrams too.

Support Center » Downloads » R/C Modeling Files » Pro's and con's of Ballast Systems

[Subculture]

No ballast system is 100% perfect, you have to decide what imperfection(s) you can live with.

[redboat219]

Aspirated, Pumped Tank

Subculture,
The Ohio ballast tank you showed is called an Aspirated Pumped Tank similar to the one Norbert Bruggen discussed in his book Model Submarine Technology. Basically it's a rigid fixed container fitted with an open vent tube at the top. At the bottom is a flood valve, which when opened allow water to flow in from the outside. To surface a pump forces the water out and air is sucked in through the vent tube.

The crucial disadvantage here is: if you operate the pumps while the boat is submerged only water flows in through the vent pipe instead of air; and the tank just stays full.

In the Subcommittee Report Carter Kaplan used a small reversible airplane fuel pump together with a vented tank on his Revell 1/200 George Washington RC conversion.