Torpedoes

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  • Kazzer
    *********
    • Aug 2008
    • 2848

    Torpedoes

    Quite a lot of our customers have asked me what Merriman is up to these days, and if he’s ever going to get his act together and make some torpedoes. He’s very annoying, as you all know, and I was pretty sure he made those torpedoes a few years ago, just to irritate us all. So I asked him the following questions, and have posted the best parts of his replies. The rest of his rantings and ravings are in my trash can, so the more meek members won’t have fainting spells. I can tell you all now, he doesn’t get better with age!

    THE Q&A

    Well, Your Eminence, I guess you've eventually gotten around to producing a torpedo system that can go commercial. So, my first question to you is, what took you so long? I mean it looks pretty easy to me, and good grief, you WERE a torpedo man in the US Navy weren't you?


    "Finally gotten around to producing a torpedo system" ....Finally?!!

    You darned well know that I've been busting my tail making product for the Caswell Inc. Empire, you slave-driving, unappreciative, sweat -shop proprietor! I've never been more overworked in my life since I hooked my wagon to yours. Yeah, I'll get to the torpedo-launcher system .... I'm on it, damit!

    It's not like I'm jumping into this latest assignment from you cold, Mike; I've been playing with the development, perfection and use of practical weapons and launchers for over twenty-five years now. Sure, that work has not been full time, but without the prospect of commercial gain from that activity, I've had little incentive to engage the job with any meaningful commitment. I am, after all, one who will chase activities that garner the most money -- those things I do just for fun do not get the same attention as those things I sell to the market.

    I first became seriously enamored with the idea of outfitting my r/c submarines with practical torpedoes (and their attendant sub-system, a practical launcher/torpedo tube) after observing the great performance of Mike Dory's gas propelled torpedoes -- it was his years of development and use that showed me that these things were do-able, my advancements are simply refinement of the work Mike Dory started.



    I finally captured the above shot of a Thor 1/72 ALFA getting off one of my gas propelled torpedoes ... took two rolls of film till I finally caught the moment of launching in the frame -- six hours of work at the pool to get this one good shot, but it was worth it!


    Looks easy to you?! ... why don't you build it then?

    Mike, I've read so, so many posts by people out there who think they have the brains and talent to come up with a reliable and well performing weapon-launcher system. And of those only a few have transitioned from the Internet babbeling stage and onto completion of viable systems. This very short list of accomplished weaponeer's includes Mike Dory, Gene Berger, Dan Kachur, Simon Smith, the very scary Doctor Drake, and a few others.

    Making small, scale-like torpedoes work in the environment is a major engineering feat, and one accomplished by only a few.

    Man! Have you thought this through? But, you wave the cash in my puss and I'll grab at it.

    Yeah, I was a Torpedoman in the navy. But don't get your hopes up. Little of that training -- other than an appreciation of how dangerous HP air systems, oxygen bearing compounds and explosives can be -- is of use as I transition from 'the real thing' to the model torpedoes we're currently interested in, Mike. The motto of squid's in my rate was this: "I may not be able to spell it, but I can lift it"; In my day TM/Diver's were not bred to be smart, just capable of doing tough jobs. You know, like big, trainable monkeys. And just to make my point, I learn that in the late 80's the navy started pulling TM's off submarines and left the weapons and launchers in the equally capable hands of the A-Gang thread-strippers: another rate populated by nuckle-dragging uni-brow types.


    I've seen dusty old photos of some of your previous attempts at this project and it looks like you got a couple of systems to work. So why haven't you marketed them? Eh? Eh? Spending too much time being rude to people on forums?


    It's been an evolutionary path for me. But a focused one: from the onset of my weapon and launcher work I confined myself to gas propelled weapons, and launchers that did two basic things -- secured the weapon until time of launch and to make use of the gas within the weapon to be the agent of launcher activation and weapon expulsion from the tube. The objectives were: ease of production, reliability, minimal tasks to re-load weapon and re-set launcher, easy access to all elements of the weapon and launcher sub-systems, safety, and low exposure of lawsuit as a consequence of use.

    Over the decades I sent around photos and authored articles on the work as it stood at the time. Some of that appeared in the pages of the SCR. These screeds went out to establish original art as well as to pass on what I learned to others -- an obligation a Master Craftsman has to his peers and understudies.

    Before entertaining your suggestion of going commercial with the weapon and launcher I was very free with the dissemination of all details involved in the design, fabrication and use of weapon and launcher. Now, however, as we're going ahead with a commercial version of the weapon and launcher I'm compelled to keep some of the details close to the vest. Once we secure patent pending status all will be revealed. But, for this discussion I have no problem giving out the broad picture as to weapon and launcher configuration and theory of operation.

    Initially the weapon body was a length of aluminum tube capped with cast resin warhead and afterbody -- careful selection of weapon materials that would result in an 'empty' weight a bit less than the weapons displacement was a prim design criteria: Though simple and cheap to produce, the weapons are still a pain if you lose one to sinking with each shot -- you want them to float for retrieval and re-use. Also, the early launchers suffered in that they did not provide for the positive retention of the weapon within the tube until the moment of launch -- the result was the inevitable 'cook-off' as a weapon left the launcher, un-commanded. Very embarrassing. Today the launcher mechanically holds the weapon in the tube with the launcher in the 'battery' condition.




    What a plumber's nightmare the launcher presents! The majority of this pictured Rube Goldberg involves the plumbing and mechanics of the rotary firing valve distributor. This particular experimental launcher suffered from the lack of a positive means of holding the weapon in the tube until the launcher went to the 'launch' condition. The result was the occasional 'cook off' of a weapon; self-launching without command. Bad ju-ju! ... ain't that right, Skip?

    Lessons were learned over time:

    Dissimilar material in the rapidly temperature changing weapon ground together at the glue joints causing gas leaks. The launchers all suffered from a very complex and heavy mechanical firing valve selector mechanism that took up room and required exacting metal fabrication techniques and were maintenance heavy. As my weapon and launcher sub-systems evolved they got simpler and easier to manufacture and maintain. Things have finally arrived at the point where, today, the sub-systems are just about ready for commercial sale. It took time.

    The recent availability of reliable, small, medium-pressure solenoid valves has brought the launcher state-of-the-art to the point where I can now completely omit the external firing valve distributor mechanism and achieve torpedo tube launch function using components attached directly to the launcher -- permitting me to produce complete torpedo tube units that can be stacked and nested to achieve just about any bow or stern room launcher arrangement the end-user has in mind. We are currently sticking to 1/72nd scale, but plan to produce 1/96 and 1/32nd versions of the weapon and launcher.




    As things get better, they invariably get smaller and sometimes cheaper -- the massive mechanical firing valve distributor mechanisms have been replaced by an electronic switch and a tiny solenoid actuated firing valve directly mounted to the launcher.

    continued...........
    Stop messing about - just get a Sub-driver!
  • Kazzer
    *********
    • Aug 2008
    • 2848

    #2
    ...................continued



    So why haven't you marketed them? Eh? Eh?


    Two technical device breakthroughs occurred recently to enable me to consider producing the weapons and launchers for sale. The already mentioned availability of the little solenoid gas valves (firing valve). This permits the elimination of the large, bulky, complex, and maintenance heavy mechanical-pneumatic firing valve distributor mechanism by replacing it with a very simple on-tube electrically actuated mini-valve -- this little solenoid valve has changed EVERYTHING relating to launcher design, manufacture and function.

    Don Foreman was the first to assist us with his bread-boarded electronic switch for the operation of up to ten launchers from one r/c system channel. A break-through device.


    And the fine work of two electrical engineering talents, Don Foreman and Kevin McLeod; both of these gentleman have developed prototype electronic switches that can, in sequence, activate a torpedo tube firing valve, one at a time, with each flick of the transmitter 'launch' button. Any number of torpedo tubes can be actuated, in any order, using just one r/c channel. No more big, heavy, complex mechanical firing valve distributors.

    As background look at the three below pictures: they show off the make-up and complexity of the smallest mechanical-pneumatic firing valve distributor I could make -- one designed to sequence the firing of the four torpedo tubes aboard a Thor 1/96 PERMIT kit hull.






    Modified Schrader valves (tire valves) comprised the 'firing valve'. Each firing valve actuated a specific torpedo tube, shifting the condition of the launcher from 'battery' to 'launched'. A mechanical escapement worked off the motion of a single servo to cycle a cam that made contact with the valve stem of a firing valve each time the servo was cycled.

    Close-up of the firing valves arrayed around the central distributor cam. The linkage translated the linear motion of the servo pushrod to a 90-degree rotary motion of the cam. The escapement could be modified to give divisions that sequenced as many as eight firing valves. Very complex, very taxing to manufacture, and very expensive to a potential buyer. And maintenance heavy. Fine for me. Not so fine for Joe-blow the average driver-monkey.

    Here you see the 1/96 Thor PERMIT hull kit outfitted with pneumatically actuated (the same Propel gas source as used for the ballast system) torpedo tubes. The firing valve distributor is not installed in this shot, it fits onto the forward brass bracket you see bonded into the lower hull, forward.


    My torpedo design has come a long way over the years. I've settled on an all resin torpedo (the gas reservoir formed by the torpedoes hollow interior), so the gas leaking problems of old (cracked joints between dissimilar materials) have been eliminated. And since the majority of the weapon is formed in a one-shot casting process, production cost is low and the weapons can be cast en mass, and quickly. Time is money, so I can make a lot of these torpedoes with little time invested, the cost per unit has come down markedly.



    Why hasn't anyone else taken on this task? There seems to be a lot of noise and brash talk from 'wanna-be' torpedo launcher designers, yet no-one is actually marketing anything, unless you know different.



    I know of one guy, his name escapes me, who took one of my earlier concepts and produced some weapons and launchers for sale. Don't know if he's still selling his system. I think he under-valued his work and took a bath, but I could be wrong on that. Anyway, other than Simon Smiths 1/32 gas propelled torpedoes and launcher sub-systems back 'in the day', I don't recall anyone else who's gone commercial with an r/c submarine suitable torpedo or launcher.

    Yeah, the topic of torpedo-launcher systems keeps coming up in the forums, with little actual hardware presented from all the talk.

    Bottom line, the answer to your question: The few who have developed and use torpedoes and torpedo launching sub-systems, as far as I know, keep pretty much to themselves and don't sell actively. Mike Dory is one of the first to 'get it right' -- though of a larger scale than most would want, his torpedoes exhibit a reliability, and ease of maintenance few others in the field have achieved. And when you find someone who has a reasonably well working system aboard their submarine, it's likely a derivative of his design.

    Currently, I don't know of any available torpedo or torpedo launching sub-systems out there for sale. Mr. Caswell and I plan to change that this year.


    Do you think folks would have settled for firing one torpedo from their boat? Surely that wouldn't have been difficult to do?

    The number of torpedoes carried and fired is dependant on launcher sub-system design. The simple launcher, the Mike Dory design, where a pin is pulled out of the ass-end of the torpedo nozzle, permitting the weapon to eject itself out the tube, is the old standard. And works like a charm ... bearing with the occasional cook-off problem.

    But, with his basic launcher only two weapons can be fired from a single servo. Yes, people would settle for firing just one or two weapons from their boat, but seems like they are waiting for someone like me to serve it up to them on a gold platter. People don't 'build' stuff anymore. They buy it, ready-to-go.

    Perhaps you could tell me why you finally settled on using gas as the propellant, rather than the popular notion of a motor and batteries?

    Simplicity and cost. Loose an electric torpedo and you're out of some real money. Loose a simple gas type torpedo, and the pocketbook hit is marginal.

    And I like the flurry and drama of a steaming wake rising to the surface only inches behind the advancing weapon. I love to watch the horror cross the face of a victim as he realizes that the axe is falling, seconds away, onto his neck.

    Priceless!

    You don't get that sort of evil thrill from sneaky wakeless torpedoes -- you're victim is surely just as dead, he just does not know it yet. What's the fun in that?

    I've seen people trying to make gas propelled torpedoes from aluminum tube and cast resin ends. Do you see problems with that?

    I've done a lot of work making weapons with aluminum and even titanium mid-sections. However, different expansion coefficients between various metals and resin parts result in broken glue bonds between them. O-rings are the best means of sealing different material parts, but that involves crimping very small sized tubes and resin parts. Not easy without specialized tools and processes.

    And weight is a critical issue with torpedoes: the weapons weight must be less than that of the water it displaces or it will sink and you'll loose it at the end of the run. I've found that if I cast the entire weapon from resin (with a hollow mid-section) I eliminate the gas leaking problem entirely. And that is the basic design that I've been making r/c model submarine torpedoes to for the last five year.


    (Torpedo weight at the end of run is a design critical objective when dealing with all electrical propulsion schemes. The smaller the size of the weapon, the more dense becomes the propulsion element. I have yet to see a practical electric torpedo that is buoyant in a size smaller than 1/72. Dan Kachur has done excellent work replacing the common chemical battery with a high-capacity electrolytic capacitor though, and his torpedoes exhibit a propulsion element of moderate density. And the relatively new Lithium polymer batteries have exceptionally high energy density -- packing much more capacity per unit weight than other type batteries).


    What size will your system be? Pictures? Which models do you see these systems operating in?

    Initially 1/72. Then, a half-year or so later, 1/96. I want to get into a production mode with the 1/72 weapon and launcher to capitalize on the availability of the excellent Revell American GATO and German Type-7 plastic model kits out there now, as well as the soon to be available Lindberg Japanese I-20 and I-53 class model kits.

    For nearly a century the major navies have settled on 21-inch diameter as the caliber of choice for underwater launched torpedoes (though the Soviets have added to the mix a larger caliber launcher for cruise missiles and long range wake-homing weapons - the American's recent flirtation with 30-inch bore tubes turning out to be an aberration).

    At 1/72 scale, for example, the distance between bore centers scales out to 1/2". We're going to offer the launcher as a separate, independently operated item. The launcher, outfitted with indexing tabs and pins, will permit two or more units to be stacked, one atop the other, to make up a port and starboard 'nest' of tubes; the number and disposition of the tubes dictated by the specific submarine type and desire of the kit-assembler.

    Do you have an idea of when the first system will be ready, and which scale will be first off the production room floor?

    Soon after this years SubRegatta. 1/72nd.


    The current launcher and weapon configurations. The launcher’s function has been greatly enhanced and minimized because of the availability of the attached tiny solenoid firing valve. The entire weapon is cast resin with the exception of the 1/16" o.d. aluminum tube equipped with a nozzle with a .005" throat bore. Just right for a 1/72 torpedo.


    Stop messing about - just get a Sub-driver!

    Comment

    • Slats
      Vice Admiral
      • Aug 2008
      • 1776

      #3
      Mike and David,

      Thanks so much for this. A great feat of craftsmanship and inventive engineering along an evolutionary path so that the average guy can buy and install an off the shelf product.
      Excellent -simply brilliant.


      Best
      John
      John Slater

      Sydney Australia

      You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
      Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



      sigpic

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      • Kazzer
        *********
        • Aug 2008
        • 2848

        #4
        Originally posted by Slats
        Mike and David,

        Thanks so much for this. A great feat of craftsmanship and inventive engineering along an evolutionary path so that the average guy can buy and install an off the shelf product.
        Excellent -simply brilliant.


        Best
        John
        The Wizard and The Witch - at your service!
        Stop messing about - just get a Sub-driver!

        Comment

        • He Who Shall Not Be Named
          Moderator
          • Aug 2008
          • 12333

          #5
          Originally posted by Slats
          Mike and David,

          Thanks so much for this. A great feat of craftsmanship and inventive engineering along an evolutionary path so that the average guy can buy and install an off the shelf product.
          Excellent -simply brilliant.


          Best
          John
          Modesty prevents me from adding anything to that.

          David,
          Who is John Galt?

          Comment

          • Slats
            Vice Admiral
            • Aug 2008
            • 1776

            #6
            A generic overarching question that hopefully won't encrounch on your IP before your patent process...

            Can you tell us how the connection goes between the electronic swither with the WTC and the tubes? I am a bit concerned about the waterproofing arrangements, and the space avaliable on the end caps to accomodate the electrical hookup - no doubt you have this in hand.

            J
            John Slater

            Sydney Australia

            You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
            Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



            sigpic

            Comment

            • He Who Shall Not Be Named
              Moderator
              • Aug 2008
              • 12333

              #7
              Originally posted by Slats
              A generic overarching question that hopefully won't encrounch on your IP before your patent process...

              Can you tell us how the connection goes between the electronic swither with the WTC and the tubes? I am a bit concerned about the waterproofing arrangements, and the space avaliable on the end caps to accomodate the electrical hookup - no doubt you have this in hand.

              J
              A Futaba J-connector using only two pins. Electrolysis is not an issue as the current across the pins within a connector is one time and only a fraction of a second.

              At this time I envision a SD forward bulkhead with (for a six-tube nest) seven studs through it. The studs to carry the common and six hot wires to the respective launcher solenoids. The electronic switch within the SD.

              David,
              Who is John Galt?

              Comment

              • Slats
                Vice Admiral
                • Aug 2008
                • 1776

                #8
                Much appreciate that. Seems like you only need a small amount of space in the WTC and small realestate on the wall of the end cap. Fantastic!

                J
                John Slater

                Sydney Australia

                You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                sigpic

                Comment

                • Kazzer
                  *********
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 2848

                  #9
                  The latest update from The Cave.
                  Click image for larger version

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                  The Wizard has been able to work a little more on our torpedo system, and have made some final modifications to the launching mechanism.
                  After more than 50 trial launches, His Eminence is pleased to report 100% success rate. He did mention that instead of feeding gas from a separate reservoir, we will now be feeding the tubes from the main ballast tank gas reservoir.

                  Work continues! Note the pink panties are back for a few days, so he'll be able to concentrate instead of annoying us all on the forum.
                  Stop messing about - just get a Sub-driver!

                  Comment

                  • ManOwaR
                    Lieutenant Commander
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 217

                    #10
                    What size O.D. tube is used as the standard here for the torpedo tubes themselves?

                    Joel
                    https://www.facebook.com/HMKcreations

                    Comment

                    • pjdog
                      Commander
                      • Apr 2009
                      • 302

                      #11
                      I see the thor alpha sub with the torpedoes, will these things fit in a WWII type sub like a Gato and type-VII subs. My folks always told me there was no such thing as stupid question.

                      Jack

                      Comment

                      • Outrider
                        Commander
                        • Aug 2008
                        • 304

                        #12
                        David has said that a 1:72 version is in the works. I asked him about fitting torpedoes to the Type XXIII, of which there are two kits suitable for R/C in 1:72. He said it's an ideal platform. The Type XXIII is a small sub, and the prototype only had two tubes and carried no reloads. My sense is that bigger 1:72 hulls, like the Gato and Type VII, have "plenty" of room--though it will still be a challenge to pack a tube in every suitable orifice.
                        Last edited by Outrider; 01-10-2010, 11:20 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Kazzer
                          *********
                          • Aug 2008
                          • 2848

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Outrider
                          My sense is that bigger 1:72 hulls, like the Gato and Type VII, have "plenty" of room--though it will still be a challenge to pack a tube in every suitable orifice.
                          Although the electronic firing sequencer will handle ten tubes, if you install that many in a boat, I'll suspect you'll have a greater investment that the rest of the model and operating system. Anyhow, the wow factor will be firing the first two torpedoes off, after that they'll just stand there, mouths open, terrified and incredibly impressed! At last, when the Great Unwashed ask, "Does it fire torpedoes?" you'll be able to shut them up!

                          We'll be selling the launchers individually, so you can suit your pocket and your model. Even having ONE tube operational will be pretty impressive.
                          Stop messing about - just get a Sub-driver!

                          Comment

                          • redboat219
                            Admiral
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 2760

                            #14
                            I though these launcher would only utilize gas from inside the the torpedo body to propel the fish out the tube- swim out method. But looking over the photos I notice a tube coming from the Propel tank going to the side of the launch tube which is commonly used in an impulse method of launch. Is this correct?
                            Make it simple, make strong, make it work!

                            Comment

                            • He Who Shall Not Be Named
                              Moderator
                              • Aug 2008
                              • 12333

                              #15
                              It's still in development -- we're close to getting the sub-system (launcher) finalized and we don't want to tip our hat as to function details till Mike starts the patent process. Stay tuned.

                              David,
                              Who is John Galt?

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