Vacu-forming machine

[Kazzer]

I bit the bullet today and ordered a vacuum-forming machine.

This isn't the exact machine, but it's the same model. It will be arriving in about 10 days. In the meantime, I'm going to start making plugs.

Here's what I have in mind. Merriman's 1:96 Skipjack. 1:72 T Class, M1, Surcouf, X Craft, Foxtrot.

That should keep us busy.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I'm excited about the prospect off offering vacuformed versions of these kits as it will represent a substantial reduction in the price of the kits. Stay tuned. And don't think Combat Models here. We won't turn a product loose till it's right.

David

[MThor]

This is really the best way to go. FRP is so time consuming and costly to produce.

[Subculture]

Are you going to pull the mouldings into reverse/female tooling? Otherwise you won't be able to resolve any scribed detail, plus the dimensions will be out as the width of the plastic will increase overall dimensions unless this is allowed for in the pattern.

My inclination is towards hull forms which don't have huge amounts of fine detail, but are interesting in shape, and large in scale. e.g. midget subs like the Delphin, submersible like Alvin.

With the curvy shapes, they should lend themselves well to vacforming.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Are you going to pull the mouldings into reverse/female tooling? Otherwise you won't be able to resolve any scribed detail, plus the dimensions will be out as the width of the plastic will increase overall dimensions unless this is allowed for in the pattern.

My inclination is towards hull forms which don't have huge amounts of fine detail, but are interesting in shape, and large in scale. e.g. midget subs like the Delphin, submersible like Alvin.

With the curvy shapes, they should lend themselves well to vacforming.

We're going to pull the .060" or so thick polystyrene sheet into female tools. The metal/silicate filled resin tools won't be able to support much in the way of engraved detail -- the positive, high draft, very low cross sections tool cavity elements that render engraved lines on the model part don't hold up past the third pull, unless the tool is metal. And we're not yet committing to CNC cut metal tools yet -- but it's eventually in the cards.


So, the hull and sail parts will have to been smooth skinned. However, we're looking for a used three-axis laser or water-jet machine, with surface-following features, that will be used to cut out limber holes and engrave details onto the vacuformed parts -- this also gives us the means to break the parts away, with great precision, from the surrounding plastic sheet.

The objective here is to produce plastic hull and sail parts that are nearly on a par with injection-formed model parts. Mikes got the resources, I've got the brains and good looks, and you guys have the cash.


What can go wrong?

David

[MThor]

We're going to pull the .060" or so thick polystyrene sheet into female tools. The metal/silicate filled resin tools won't be able to support much in the way of engraved detail -- the positive, high draft, very low cross sections tool cavity elements that render engraved lines on the model part don't hold up past the third pull, unless the tool is metal. And we're not yet committing to CNC cut metal tools yet -- but it's eventually in the cards.


So, the hull and sail parts will have to been smooth skinned. However, we're looking for a used three-axis laser or water-jet machine, with surface-following features, that will be used to cut out limber holes and engrave details onto the vacuformed parts -- this also gives us the means to break the parts away, with great precision, from the surrounding plastic sheet.

The objective here is to produce plastic hull and sail parts that are nearly on a par with injection-formed model parts. Mikes got the resources, I've got the brains and good looks, and you guys have the cash.


What can go wrong?

David

Dave-A 3 axis machine will not work. You need a 5 axis machine to do what you are wanting to do. Don't use a laser on plastic. You will get uneven cuts and pull back from the penetration. Water jet will work, but you must be extremely careful on soft materials like plastic. You can get lots of tear out and inconsistent cutting. It can be done, but takes a special head with a high solids to fluid ratio. You, also, need to provide a very sturdy surface underneath so that the plastic does not vibrate at its natural frequency while being but. That will destroy the part....If you knew all of this already, I apologize.

[Kazzer]

My inclination is towards hull forms which don't have huge amounts of fine detail, but are interesting in shape, and large in scale. e.g. midget subs like the Delphin, submersible like Alvin.

With the curvy shapes, they should lend themselves well to vacforming.

I agree. I like boats like the British K Class, those steamers, the Swordfish, the M1, M2.

Look at this J Class -
Delightful shape!

These hulls are simple, sleek with little detail. (Probably because the photos and plans are non existent. I think this sort of thing is ideal for beginner modelers, and perfect for vacu-forming.

We'll see!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Got to keep to commercially viable subjects Mike -- you taught me that, pal! Them pre-WW-2 boats ain't it.

The speedy, very maneuverable little DELPHIN as Andy recommended. A 15-20 inch long model of that beast would sell well. Dynamic diver, quick, maneuverable, easy to assemble. How bout it, Boss? Make that the first victim of your machine? Only outside vender we need is someone to make the bayonet rings.


Or the US Navy's X-1 and MANTA, the German SEEHUND. Just the sort of thing that lends itself to the process.

David

[alad61]

If all that can done in the begining is smoothies then that just makes detailing them more fun. If I recall David you sanded back most of the weld lines on the revell Gato and lets face it once the boats in the water most of the smaller detail is lost to the eye anyway. But if some one wants rivet lines or weld lines there are companies like archer do scaled rivet, welded seams etc in thier decal range. Also there is plenty of pe sets, kits and accessories that can be used/adapted. If an afordable foxtrot came out that looked good as is or just needed some extra detail loving I'd be happy. But thats me...

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Points well taken, Alec. Thanks for the input.

David

[Kazzer]

The other considerations are the cost. To get a mold made to provide all the detail and capture scribing and undercuts, seems to me to only be feasible by using a rubber mold and applying a gel-coat and fiberglass. A typical hull done like this would be around $400 +. Whereas a vacu-formed 'smoothie' (I like that name) would run around $100.

Then there is the huge consideration of the investment of time to do all the detail work on the master, plus the cost of the rubber molds and other tooling. Vacu-forming, as I see it, only needs a solid molded part, which could easily and cheaply be made with my wonder material, epoxy concrete.

As these fiberglass hulls with detail are so expensive initially, it's no surprise that most people in the game only want to produce very popular boats, so the rest are never put on the market. I think that's a crying shame because there are so many fantastic whacky boats out there, quite a few people would thoroughly enjoy owning them.

I have my M1 which by the way, is out of mothballs, and I am progressing with. And them my T Class, which is next. But I would love one of those steamers, and The Scotsman is, to me, a beautiful boat.

All that is required is a plug/master. And if I were to do one, I'd make it out of sections or pink foam or Renshape, sand it down to basic shape and finish it off with drywall compound, finally sealing it with Kilz sealer. Any idiot with a jig-saw could do that!

Hopefully, we could generate lots of folks churning out masters, sending them to me, and I churn out a few hulls using this new vacu-former.

There! Simple!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

simple (unconrollable shaking from head-to-foot!)

[Subculture]

You got that x-craft going yet?

[Kazzer]

You got that x-craft going yet?

It's all mended after the UPS calamity, but after swinging my weight around, they coughed up and paid me for the repairs and aggro. The WTC has a small leak in it somewhere and I have to take it apart to find it. Darn! The thing is too complicated. I prefer Merriman's stuff.

But, first, I'm getting ready for the vacu-former, and trying hard to finish my M1. I put the skeg in today, and tidied up the waterline joints with superglue & baking soda. I cast a new gun too, after wrecking one on my lathe.

Tomorrow, I'll be installing the dive planes and rudder. Then I might be able to get a bit of primer on it.

[Subculture]

The module in that boat isn't overly complex. You have the ballast shifting, which is just two servos linked to a sliding plastic trays with the batteries strapped to them. Then you have the ballast system itself, which can pump water bi-directionally into a flexible bag. That system gives you a great deal of control when trimming for neutral buoyancy, only a servo controlled piston tank can better it.