Water-Pump Ballast Systems

[junglelord]

I found this kilo on another forum.
I am sure that you know the person Mr Merriman
Here is a quote

The WTC system is designed especially for the Kilo. It features twin floating piston ballast tanks driven by 2 pumps. Water is pumped into and out of the tanks as required to maintain perfect neutral stability, and allows the submarine to dive and surface.

Extreme precise adjustments and simplicity are the key. The system is fast acting also. You can hover this boat underwater, rock it back and fourth, and return to a perfect hover, all without expensive and complex electronics and systems.

The Kilo also has a inherent stability in pitch when submerged, it wants to stay level all by itself. This is from the special "stability tanks" located inside the hull, on each side of the WTC. These are maintenance free and work amazingly well. On the other hand, they also make it much more stable in roll when surfaced, as compared to a sub without them.


http://www.rpmtech1.com/

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Good discussion, guys.

I don't have a problem if you link us over to a site that gives us a well presented look at their specific system. Knowledge is a good thing.

David,

[Slats]

Agreed and I appreciate the experience.

The one I linked too, was specifically for my Robbe Seawolf conversion.
The person that made that, has never had a leak, or blown the end caps in that particular WTC with the ratio of water which is 200-250cc. Granted that internal system is not good for MANY reason, but of course, external tanks that have water filled by the pump seems good.

I do not want to link to other competitor sites, but one gentlemen is using external ballast water filled and emptied that is basicly the idea with cylinders.

I was thinking the bag outside the WTC ala RCABS, but water instead.
I know the bag must allow proper pitch as well as static dive.
Maybe the one competitor is the only one I have found with neither Snort or RCABS. I found one that also sells water pumps. Again I do not want to post competitor web sites.

I am a newbie. My Robbe is dynamic and only tube tested as of yet. I look forward to my LPB Seaview that is ovbiously state of the art.
I'll drink to THAT!

How would a bag filled with water OUTSIDE the dry section / WTC or dry hull dive the sub?
Think here mate - Being outside - the bag is in the water - so you are just relocating the water from the wet hulled area to a bag within the wet area. Doing so there is no change in displacement. Bag used as WATER filled ballast tanks are always within the dry hulled / WTC space where being filled the Dry area weighs more and you dive.

RCABS works by AIR in the bag acting upon the wet area (i.e. causing positive displacement against the wet area). The air space outside the WTC (within the inflated bag) replaces what was water and you surface. When deflated, the air space that was occupied by the inflated bag is then re-occupied by water and you dive.

J

[junglelord]

Agreed and I appreciate the experience.

The one I linked too, was specifically for my Robbe Seawolf conversion.
The person that made that, has never had a leak, or blown the end caps in that particular WTC with the ratio of water which is 200-250cc. Granted that internal system is not good for MANY reason, but of course, external tanks that have water filled by the pump seems good.

I do not want to link to other competitor sites, but one gentlemen is using external ballast water filled and emptied that is basicly the idea with cylinders.

I was thinking the bag outside the WTC ala RCABS, but water instead.
I know the bag must allow proper pitch as well as static dive.
Maybe the one competitor is the only one I have found with neither Snort or RCABS. I found one that also sells water pumps. Again I do not want to post competitor web sites.

I am a newbie. My Robbe is dynamic and only tube tested as of yet. I look forward to my LPB Seaview that is ovbiously state of the art.
I'll drink to THAT!

[Slats]

If only it was that simple.

I have used many types of water ballast (pump systems) over the years.
I'd say that they are still very much in use and yes they do work.

The system you describe must be fiitted within a dry space - hence the bag filling and emptying ballast within the space acting as a ballast tank controls the dived / surfaced states. The bag my friend in filling creates internal pressure within the dry space, so much so that I have seen end caps blow off WTCs and seals within dry hulled subs can fail using this method too. I have seen first hand big failures where by the pump switch fails to cut off and the hoses to the bag come away from the pump conduits causing massive flooding. All of this can be overcome but its not as simple as you put it. 15 years on in this hobby, I am still learning, and lesson number one about ballast systems is nothing is perfectly simple and without issues. I think people who are using the latest evolution of the D&E Gas system (the Subdriver), are finding it to be quite a simple way to proceed and the addition of the low pressure blower adds to this evolution too.


The current and emerging new ways of doing things over say the last 5 years or so has been RCABS and more recently the snort (Low pressure blower coupled with gas). Its not that water pump systems don't work, its just at the moment the current and emerging methods are being explored and people are finding them very effective. Hence there is lots of discussion about them, and perhaps less on more old school methods.


J

[junglelord]

How come the Static RC Subs are broken down into the two camps of mainly RCASB and LPB. At least thats what I seem to find.

Why is a simple Waterpump Ballast System not more common>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIluczFoac&feature=related

I showed this system on this thread.

http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?t=4

I realize that the Snort also utilizes a water ballast, but it is either full or empty from what I understand. With a two way waterpump, two fish aquarimum valves, one or two urine bladder bag, one could have a very simple, cost effective, static system of control.
:p

How come this is not more common?