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Australia is going to buying 9 Virginia Class block 5 SSNs

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  • Australia is going to buying 9 Virginia Class block 5 SSNs

    I never thought I'd see this day - this truly an incredible day - the Royal Australia Navy has scrapped its contract with France for conventional subs and is going Nuclear with Virginia class. It's in direct response to China.


    https://www.9news.com.au/national/au...2-0bb4097f547c

    John Slater

    Sydney Australia

    You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
    Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



    sigpic

  • #2
    What!???....

    America doing the submarine export thing? Nuclear technology for sale? I don't believe it!

    Wait. These are the same idiots who messed up the Afghanistan thing. And elected a potato-head.

    Never mind.

    Please, tell me this was reported by the Onion.

    David
    ...and thanks for all the fish
    Resident Luddite

    Comment


    • #3
      How long before Russia gets our technology? Idiots in the woke pentagon.
      There is no greater enemy than one’s own fears. It takes a brave man to face them.

      Comment


      • #4
        I didn’t think they mentioned specifics of which class and numbers. I agree that the diesel option with the French was not keeping up with the realities of what’s happening in the pacific and of course the Chinese blame us for possibly triggering an arms race that they have started. All I can say is that the MI5 , NSA and CIA must have tremendous faith in ASIO. Because ASIO is going to have its work cut out for it keeping those nuclear secrets in the right hands. The problem is that we have no domestic nuclear industry. We would be totally reliant on US or UK nuclear Infrastructure to maintain whatever nuc boats we get. Is this realistic? We loose some of our sovereignty by being restricted by foreign supply chains.

        In 1982 we ordered some replacement components in the UK for our O boats. The British government declined our order for parts at the time as they were focused on a war with Argentina. This made Canberra reinforce its position that the O boat replacement project ( Collins) have a much greater local Australian capability. This forced Australian industry to step up. I really believe that we need an indigenous capability if we are going to be realistic about this. It would have to massively ramp up.

        The history of Australia’s relationship with submarines was very slow in getting solid. It really wasn’t until the 1960s with the O boats that we were really forced to “learn the ropes” and become self reliant. Our first two subs were lost early in World War One, and then we intermittently had subs, but usually got rid of them because we couldn’t maintain them. Our history with subs has really been a reflection of our industrial capability.

        Problem is that these subs will take probably 15 years. Is China going to wait that long. What will the strategic layout be like in 2037? One other thing, why can’t some Americans remember the names of Australian Prime ministers, it’s not that hard, Sean spicer couldn’t get it right and now Joe?

        Im going to get slapped for this…

        Some thoughts.




        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named View Post
          What!???....

          America doing the submarine export thing? Nuclear technology for sale? I don't believe it!

          Wait. These are the same idiots who messed up the Afghanistan thing. And elected a potato-head.

          Never mind.

          Please, tell me this was reported by the Onion.

          David
          ...and thanks for all the fish
          yep it's all true - I think it's high time that Australia steps up with the commonality of design with our Allies. The posturing of China and consistent retribution towards Australia needs an appropriate response and we do need (I say "we" as an Australian taxpayer) need to start paying our fair share for regional security. I'd rather pay for proven US nuke tech that works. Given that Australia has stood steadfast with US in every conflict since WW1 (noting please that the Brits were no shows in Vietnam), I think the security concerns about US tech whilst well founded are less likely to end up in the wrong hands.
          John Slater

          Sydney Australia

          You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
          Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Slats View Post

            yep it's all true - I think it's high time that Australia steps up with the commonality of design with our Allies. The posturing of China and consistent retribution towards Australia needs an appropriate response and we do need (I say "we" as an Australian taxpayer) need to start paying our fair share for regional security. I'd rather pay for proven US nuke tech that works. Given that Australia has stood steadfast with US in every conflict since WW1 (noting please that the Brits were no shows in Vietnam), I think the security concerns about US tech whilst well founded are less likely to end up in the wrong hands.
            Points well made, sir. And -- in light that the reactor will never be popped open for re-fueling making me feel better about the deal -- nuclear power does indeed open up the performance envelop of your (by necessity) long-ranging submarine force. In a world where we American's have managed to poop on almost all our international relationships your point that Australia has always been a friend of America is a fact that must be acknowledged and relationship that must be fostered.

            OK, VIRGINIA's for Australia. I'm on board. You're building them over there (like the COLLINS). Are you guys also doing the reactor work as well?

            David
            Resident Luddite

            Comment


            • #7
              Back in the day Ellie and I built several displays for various vendors contributing equipment and services towards the Australian COLLINS class boats then under construction (a Swedish design) in Australia. Here are some shots of that work.

              Click image for larger version

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              David
              Resident Luddite

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named View Post
                Back in the day Ellie and I built several displays for various vendors contributing equipment and services towards the Australian COLLINS class boats then under construction (a Swedish design) in Australia. Here are some shots of that work.

                Click image for larger version

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                David
                That's very nice David - the Collins are great boats.

                you may recall my scratch-built efforts using an early 3.5" SD. This was HMAS Rankin
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                She was armed with 6 of your 1/72 torpedoes

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                Here's a 1/72 kit I'm assembly now of another Collins - HMAS Sheean

                Click image for larger version

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                John Slater

                Sydney Australia

                You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Davidh View Post
                  I didn’t think they mentioned specifics of which class and numbers. I agree that the diesel option with the French was not keeping up with the realities of what’s happening in the pacific and of course the Chinese blame us for possibly triggering an arms race that they have started. All I can say is that the MI5 , NSA and CIA must have tremendous faith in ASIO. Because ASIO is going to have its work cut out for it keeping those nuclear secrets in the right hands. The problem is that we have no domestic nuclear industry. We would be totally reliant on US or UK nuclear Infrastructure to maintain whatever nuc boats we get. Is this realistic? We loose some of our sovereignty by being restricted by foreign supply chains.

                  In 1982 we ordered some replacement components in the UK for our O boats. The British government declined our order for parts at the time as they were focused on a war with Argentina. This made Canberra reinforce its position that the O boat replacement project ( Collins) have a much greater local Australian capability. This forced Australian industry to step up. I really believe that we need an indigenous capability if we are going to be realistic about this. It would have to massively ramp up.

                  The history of Australia’s relationship with submarines was very slow in getting solid. It really wasn’t until the 1960s with the O boats that we were really forced to “learn the ropes” and become self reliant. Our first two subs were lost early in World War One, and then we intermittently had subs, but usually got rid of them because we couldn’t maintain them. Our history with subs has really been a reflection of our industrial capability.

                  Problem is that these subs will take probably 15 years. Is China going to wait that long. What will the strategic layout be like in 2037? One other thing, why can’t some Americans remember the names of Australian Prime ministers, it’s not that hard, Sean spicer couldn’t get it right and now Joe?

                  Im going to get slapped for this…

                  Some thoughts.



                  Slap coming...

                  The old excuse Australia has no nuclear industry to support SSNs is dead. The fact is new generation reactors going in are going to be effectively sealed in the US and if necessary serviced there. The press release stated that the new reactors don't need to be re-fuelled over the boat's useful life. This also protects a heck of a lot of US nuke IP and secret stuff.

                  The smart money is on the Virginia boats - simply because the deal - which goes through 18 months now to work out the detail, will be facing a closed Astute production line in the UK. The RAN wants maximum conventional strike capability using the latest generation Tomahawks and the US block V production run for Virginia class is the obvious choice. The UK's involvement is likely to be technical in nature and strategic than actual hardware in the water.

                  As far as the boats being locally built here in my home town Adelaide, let's watch this space. I think it is more likely that it will be realized very early on that Huntington Ingalls / General Dynamics EB / Newport News really know what they are doing and the first couple of boats are like to be US-built. The might of these three giants may see them set up parallel infrastructure paid for in Australia to build the rest, and they will be pivotal to successful localized non-nuclear maintenance. There will be local jobs in Australia - both good for the economy and for Australia's self-sufficiency, but there will be numerous opportunities too for American workers.

                  This deal will cost $90bn. I feel completely comfortable as an Australian taxpayer to back this project. We are a small nation of just 26 million people, but we have an ongoing responsibility to ensure that our freedom and that of other like-minded democracies remain intact. We can't let the US be the lone cop on the beat in the Pacific and South China Sea. Our Navy needs to be modernized and we need to make up in tech what we lack in sheer numbers.
                  John Slater

                  Sydney Australia

                  You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                  Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I just don’t see how it could be realistic to seal up the reactor and only have it serviced In the states. I realize that would reduce ASIO and naval intelligences workload. There will be times when there is a reactor / systems fault and the boat is local, are we going to get it towed to pearl or San Diego? Yes granted US reactor technology is reliable but you can’t eliminate that possibility. Maybe they may have US reactor experts and facilities here as required.

                    I agree, Australia has seen the writing of the wall and the need to leapfrog French diesel boats that are going to take forever to build. However have we set a precedent that foreign contractors may be very wary of doing business with Australia, as we may get a name as being ‘ unpredictable’ and inclined to tear up contracts?

                    My other concern with having the reactor sealed up and for US ‘eyes only’ stateside is that we are at the whim of US politics. Some circumstance may come up where one of our boats has a fault, it’s in San Diego and for whatever reason there is tension between AUS/ US and that boat is not available for Australia’s interests. Or as mentioned in my last post, US sub resources are diverted to US Sub interests. If the Columbia SSBN project is going to ramp up then It will be sucking up a lot of resources.

                    Who is it to say that the next administration may not cancel this program with the first keel laid up and going nowhere. Don’t get me wrong , This decision is the needed ‘muscling up’ to China and its bullying that we really needed to do. I just wonder if we ever considered telling the French,” hey let’s just modify the order and get the nuclear version. “ they’ve already got one in the water. I know that opens up a whole range of French IP and security concerns.

                    Adelaide is going to have to massively ramp up and so Is Australia’s supply chain and know how. Heck the ‘subs in Schools’ program may get ramped up even further even though they show no interest in my contribution. I’m only a secondary teacher and interested in subs. They have shown no interest in getting the hobby sector involved..

                    Thoughts to consider.

                    Dave.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Davidh View Post
                      I just don’t see how it could be realistic to seal up the reactor and only have it serviced In the states. I realize that would reduce ASIO and naval intelligences workload. There will be times when there is a reactor / systems fault and the boat is local, are we going to get it towed to pearl or San Diego? Yes granted US reactor technology is reliable but you can’t eliminate that possibility. Maybe they may have US reactor experts and facilities here as required.
                      Its ASIS not ASIO that will have the lead role. The risk mitigation work and potential leaks have obviously been weighed up against the risk of capacity we will otherwise never have.

                      Originally posted by Davidh View Post
                      I agree, Australia has seen the writing of the wall and the need to leapfrog French diesel boats that are going to take forever to build. However have we set a precedent that foreign contractors may be very wary of doing business with Australia, as we may get a name as being ‘ unpredictable’ and inclined to tear up contracts?
                      No- the French consortium "Naval Group" have acted with grotesque mendacity and duplicity from the start. We are trying to defend our country not provide a French social welfare work program paid for by Australian taxpayers. The Virginia's will have multiple times the capacity, and be around 25% cheaper than the POS unproven boats the French dreamed up.

                      Originally posted by Davidh View Post
                      My other concern with having the reactor sealed up and for US ‘eyes only’ stateside is that we are at the whim of US politics. Some circumstances may come up where one of our boats has a fault, it’s in San Diego and for whatever reason there is tension between AUS/ US and that boat is not available for Australia’s interests. Or as mentioned in my last post, US sub resources are diverted to US Sub interests. If the Columbia SSBN project is going to ramp up then It will be sucking up a lot of resources.

                      Who is it to say that the next administration may not cancel this program with the first keel laid up and going nowhere. Don’t get me wrong , This decision is the needed ‘muscling up’ to China and its bullying that we really needed to do.
                      The technology now exists to make these sealed modules. As far as a future tension between US and Australia goes - pure hypothesis about a great lasting relationship. The fact is China's posturing doesn't go away and neither does Australia's weak capability gap by hypothesising over shoulda woulda coulda. Which is the greater risk / threat?


                      Originally posted by Davidh View Post
                      I just wonder if we ever considered telling the French,” hey let’s just modify the order and get the nuclear version. “ they’ve already got one in the water. I know that opens up a whole range of French IP and security concerns.
                      The French were not interested in sharing anything. Go back and read the hundreds of press pieces that led us to rip up the contract.

                      Originally posted by Davidh View Post
                      Adelaide is going to have to massively ramp up and so Is Australia’s supply chain and know how. Heck the ‘subs in Schools’ program may get ramped up even further even though they show no interest in my contribution. I’m only a secondary teacher and interested in subs. They have shown no interest in getting the hobby sector involved.

                      Thoughts to consider.

                      Dave.
                      Adelaide will step up - since arriving here, I 2 years ago, South Australia's defence infrastructure and Space infrastructure is ramping right up. It's not about the hobby - it's about the real world. These guys have visited almost every high school in Adelaide. https://www.navalshipbuildingcollege.com.au/
                      Last edited by Slats; 09-17-2021, 08:40 AM.
                      John Slater

                      Sydney Australia

                      You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                      Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        John,
                        There are only two builders; EB and Huntington Ingalls Newport News (Ingalls bought NN some time ago). As an aside, wasn't there a HUGE problem getting crews for the Collins class? I wonder how their going to man up 9 VAs?? Also, I hope you guys didn't throw away all of your Imperial wrenches (spanners), 'cos these babies aren't built Metric!!

                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Slats View Post


                          The French were not interested in sharing anything. Go back and read the hundreds of press pieces that led us to rip up the contract.
                          It's not the question of what we (I'm a frog ;) ) can / want to share or not.
                          I wondered (briefly) why we couldn't have sold our nuclear version of "Barracuda" ourselves.
                          The answer is simple: we do not have the right to export nuclear boilers, since Alstom belongs to General Electric. USA forbid us.
                          Business is business...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wlambing View Post
                            John,
                            There are only two builders; EB and Huntington Ingalls Newport News (Ingalls bought NN some time ago). As an aside, wasn't there a HUGE problem getting crews for the Collins class? I wonder how their going to man up 9 VAs?? Also, I hope you guys didn't throw away all of your Imperial wrenches (spanners), 'cos these babies aren't built Metric!!

                            Bill
                            having spent time a short time visiting aboard HMAS Rankin - I can attest to truly horrendous cramped conditions. Impeccably clean and great grub, nonetheless I don't know how the crews do it long term. The habitability has been a BIG issue for Collins retention. One would hope that a big nuke would offer a bit more space / more pleasant habitability, but they are going to need a big recruitment drive and appropriate pay too.
                            John Slater

                            Sydney Australia

                            You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                            Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Akula54 View Post

                              It's not the question of what we (I'm a frog ;) ) can / want to share or not.
                              I wondered (briefly) why we couldn't have sold our nuclear version of "Barracuda" ourselves.
                              The answer is simple: we do not have the right to export nuclear boilers, since Alstom belongs to General Electric. USA forbid us.
                              Business is business...
                              There was a lot more to it than the nuclear option or not with the French deal. The deal has been sour since it started. KPIs were not met, or adhered to, and the French 'Naval Group' were given multiple deadlines that slipped to outline exactly what was going to be built here in Adelaide and what was to be assembled in France.

                              The French politicians can cry all they like - and they will in order to save face at home they will obviously shift the blame to Australia. The fact remains Naval Group were put on notice, warned etc for almost 20 months. The fact that Australia openly stated in the press 18 months ago that they were actively looking at multiple alternative plan B's if the French couldn't deliver on key milestones, is no surprise here in Australia that we now have this new deal. If it is a surprise to the ordinary French citizen, that this new deal is being explained as Australia has now unexpectantly and nefariously acted - I guess that's politics in France, but I would also guess it in part is the hubris of Naval Group.
                              John Slater

                              Sydney Australia

                              You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                              Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



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