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Australia is going to buying 9 Virginia Class block 5 SSNs

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  • #16
    The problem here is, that even two weeks ago Australia and France seemed to stand behind the deal and did so publicly. At that time, the negotiations for the nuclear sub deal must have gone on for months. So I see it indeed critical that France, an ally and NATO partner, has been deceived by the US, UK, and Australia. For me its quite clear that , together with the Afghanistan disaster, the US is not a trustworthy partner anymore. And with Boris Johnson, the UK will never be a trustworthy partner....

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DrSchmidt View Post
      The problem here is, that even two weeks ago Australia and France seemed to stand behind the deal and did so publicly. At that time, the negotiations for the nuclear sub deal must have gone on for months. So I see it indeed critical that France, an ally and NATO partner, has been deceived by the US, UK, and Australia. For me its quite clear that , together with the Afghanistan disaster, the US is not a trustworthy partner anymore. And with Boris Johnson, the UK will never be a trustworthy partner....
      I'm ashamed to say that Dr. Schmidt's analysis of the situation is correct. American foreign policy has floundered tragically of late -- most in keeping with our turn toward socialism. My country has lost the will and ability to lead, morally and militarily. We are now a self-hating, corrupt, in-fighting community of selfish isolationists. I'm so glad my parents did not live to see this. I never thought we would abandon American's and our allies like we are doing now.

      We get the government we deserve. Sad. But true. God damn our Politician's!

      David
      Resident Luddite

      Comment


      • #18
        I have to mildly disagree with David in some points. Firstly: The US has not turned towards socialism. Compared to what in Europe would account for social democrats (I would call myself a social democrat who votes for the green party), the US democrats are ultra conservative. And: The change didn't start with Biden (look at what Trump did), but the decay in US politics started with more and more lobby money directed towards Washington since the 1970's. Combined with a electoral system that only allows for two parties and there is no real diversity, and the money corrupted both parties, the democrats and the conservatives to an ever increasing extent. It's all become about rich elites protecting their stakes in the US and that in fact is the origin to the self-hating, corrupt, in-fighting community of selfish isolationists you observe. To be social means to form communities, to see that everyone is better of of by helping each other, that the resulting society is a better one than a society in which everyone is fighting for his/her own good. To be social means to collaborate and collaboration is the nothing that the US is pushing forward the last decades. It's all about short term interest and deals. Which is sad.

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        • #19
          Let's not forget that France was raping Australia for billions and had not progressed at all, missed a bunch of deadlines, etc. There are some good videos out there wherein the current Prime Minister, Mr. Morrison, vents mightily about the situation.

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          • #20
            And the US and the UK are always on schedule with their sub builds ;-)
            Last edited by DrSchmidt; 09-18-2021, 03:33 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DrSchmidt View Post
              An the US and the UK are always on schedule with their sub buiolds ;-)
              Touché, sir.
              Resident Luddite

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              • #22
                Originally posted by He Who Shall Not Be Named View Post

                I'm ashamed to say that Dr. Schmidt's analysis of the situation is correct. American foreign policy has floundered tragically of late -- most in keeping with our turn toward socialism. My country has lost the will and ability to lead, morally and militarily. We are now a self-hating, corrupt, in-fighting community of selfish isolationists. I'm so glad my parents did not live to see this. I never thought we would abandon American's and our allies like we are doing now.

                We get the government we deserve. Sad. But true. God damn our Politician's!

                David
                I agree 100% with what David has said! We are not only abandoning our allies, we are showing our cracks and opening our doors for bigger conflicts to come with adversaries China & Russia! The politicians are bringing our country to it's knees! My parents would be devastated at what is happening! This country is in a world of crap right now, and unless we find away to get it together again it's only going to get worse!!!

                Rob
                "Firemen can stand the heat"
                Last edited by rwtdiver; 09-18-2021, 02:13 PM.

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                • #23
                  Our security interests in Afghanistan were met when OBL was dispatched ten years ago. The predictable nation-building outcome being an utter failure - you can't change a tribal culture no matter how much money you throw at a problem.

                  The biggest beneficiaries of the last 20 years of waste in blood and treasure were the women. If the Taliban (who we routed in what? -less than a month with minimal boots on the ground) could re-take the country as fast as they did, there's all the proof we need.

                  The security arrangement with the Afghan Army was a complete joke; it was a lousy welfare program for an army made up of mostly illiterate troops "lead" by corrupt officers who cooked the books for imaginary troops and pocketed their pay. The regular army (kept by pay and not devotion to a US-backed government) had a 30% yearly desertion rate! The whole episode passed the stupid test with flying colors.

                  All we needed to do was smoke lots of bad guys, remove the cancer that was OBL, and leave with a reminder we would be back if we caught them supported terrorists who threaten our interests again. The whole mission was poorly thought-out, with an inevitable outcome. Bush said early on, this fight would last decades (and he is right). People can blame Biden, or Trump, but the idea of continuing a bad idea indefinitely boggles the mind.

                  When we ducked out of Bagram in the middle of the night, that spoke volumes. Our military leadership knew what was going to happen. Were the right leaders honest in their assessments? Nope! Let's surge! Buy them more weapons - they couldn't maintain anything more than a rifle for any length of time. US contractors did the intellectual heavy lifting.

                  The end result is we look like idiots - and we are for blowing trillions of dollars with what to show for it? There was never a realistic plan. The contractors got rich, the troops did the best they could

                  Politically, we're screwed right now, and it's been getting worse for a long time. We have some awesome CEO's who could really lead this country, but why would they want to? So we get what we get and everyone whines about it.

                  A nice political reset in this country would be :

                  1. Remove lobbying. It's basically legal bribery.
                  2. Mandatory Term Limits. You get four years to serve (not line your pockets!) Then you wait four years and can run again. No more politicians who serve decades and put their own self-interests ahead of their constituents.
                  3. You show how much money you have going into office and how much when you leave. The numbers better not be much higher. Political office, --like the military, is to serve the country. Politics should never be considered a career choice, just a chance to serve.
                  4. I worked for the government. The elected officials are merely migrant fruit-pickers. Political appointees rarely have the quals to do the job, which is why once they leave they're quickly replaced and the process continues, with the career government workers sighing and hoping the next "leader" doesn't rock the boat too much.
                  5. Re-frame the "Great Power Competition" for what it really is: Nations of free men protecting their self-interests against nations of people who governed by dictators, pure and simple. Russia is cozy with every despotic, pariah country there is. That speaks volumes. Play it up and shine a light on those would oppress the rest of us.

                  The Aussies need submarines. The French were screwing them behind the scenes trying to make more money. We'll screw 'em openly, with cost overruns and contract modifications. Bid low, deliver high.

                  One issue I predict, (and I hope I'm wrong) is the Chinese will move on Taiwan sooner, rather than later as they see more and more countries arming up and threatening "their area of the world". It's free China against them and they won't last too long. We'll get a bloody nose by losing a few ships, but sinking a lot more with our submarine force, and they'll hate us openly. The only way to hold ground is with troops, and we sure won't ever deploy troops against such a large army (like what happened in the Korean War) again.
                  Last edited by CC Clarke; 09-18-2021, 03:45 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by wlambing View Post
                    Let's not forget that France was raping Australia for billions and had not progressed at all, missed a bunch of deadlines, etc. There are some good videos out there wherein the current Prime Minister, Mr. Morrison, vents mightily about the situation.
                    Nailed it!

                    Folks, France has known for 20 months we (Australia) were not happy with the deal and they were continually put on notice we were weighing up other options that would culminate in us either sticking with them or pulling out and that deadline was Mid September (now). I'm on ground zero here in Adelaide South Australia where the French "Naval Group" HQ is - and I can tell you the only shock for Aussies was the nuclear option winning the plan B alternatives. The public outcry on how bad the economic deal was with the French on their sub deal (and let's face it the average jo in street doesn't understand defence but they do understand govt waste), has been continuous in the media here.

                    Ok and now the French are upset - and they will scream particularly loud as their President faces re-election in April 2022 and doesn't want to come off stupid. The bottom line is French hubris killed this deal. The fact that it's all a big surprise to the French that we canceled just shows the extent of how much we Aussies were not taken seriously. The French ought to remember there are 46,000 + Australians buried in France who were killed in the liberation of their country, some 18,000 have no known grave, and there is no Frenchman buried here for the same circumstances. The French media on the back of Brexit are out for a bit of bloodletting, they should suck it up - realize that Australians watch where the tax dollars go and that we were not impressed.

                    We are going to get great subs, and we know as a nation we face a difficult logistic journey to make this deal work.
                    Last edited by Slats; 09-19-2021, 08:35 PM. Reason: spelling
                    John Slater

                    Sydney Australia

                    You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                    Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



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                    • #25
                      As I pointed out, it's not about being 20 month delayed. Last time I checked, the US and the UK are not meeting their original schedules when building boats on a quite regular basis. Same will happen with the Australian boats. So switching from an ongoing and delayed contract to a new one that will most def also be delayed won't speed anything up for Australia.

                      The critical issue here is lack of transparency. If Australia was so unhappy, they should have stated that they will start looking for other options, or better cancel the contract and look for something new. That would have given France time to react, to step up or, to have a better position to accept being kicked out.

                      What happened is that Australia started negotiating with US and UK while telling France that they stick to the contract. Only when the new agreement was reached, the news was broken to France. That's how you burn bridges.

                      Consider this scenario: Your girlfriend is unhappy in your relationship and doesn't tell you. She does not end the relationship but starts to look for other options. Only when she found the new guy and is sure that it will work out, she tells you and kicks you out. What would you say: "Oh, she was unhappy, she is perfectly right to look for better options behind my back while not telling me?" I guess not. You'd feel deceived. You's say that shes not trustworthy. You would never want to talk to her again.

                      That's what's happening here. Lack of transparency, feelings of betrayal.

                      As I said: The US is not a trustworthy partner. The UK under Johnson are behaving like expected...

                      Cheers Andreas
                      Last edited by DrSchmidt; 09-23-2021, 03:26 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Wish I could argue with you, sir. Yes, indeed, my country is now untrustworthy. We'll even abandon our own in a God forsaken sand-box.

                        TERM LIMITS. NOW!

                        David
                        Resident Luddite

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DrSchmidt View Post
                          As I pointed out, it's not about being 20 month delayed. Last time I checked, the US and the UK are not meeting their original schedules when building boats on a quite regular basis. Same will happen with the Australian boats. So switching from an ongoing and delayed contract to a new one that will most def also be delayed won't speed anything up for Australia.
                          The project is not 20 months delayed - Australia has been complaining about the contract openly in the press for at least 20 months with the press reporting key milestones - not to deliver subs (impossible in that time) - but to deliver reassurances and remedies to the problems. Australia has been completely open in the media and France that if we weren't satisfied we would start looking for an alternative.

                          Originally posted by DrSchmidt View Post
                          The critical issue here is the lack of transparency. If Australia was so unhappy, they should have stated that they will start looking for other options, or better cancel the contract and look for something new. That would have given France time to react, to step up or, to have a better position to accept being kicked out.

                          What happened is that Australia started negotiating with US and UK while telling France that they stick to the contract. Only when the new agreement was reached, the news was broken to France. That's how you burn bridges.
                          Again re-read the comment above - and also consider the biggest complaint Australia had with the French was lack of transparency.

                          Originally posted by DrSchmidt View Post
                          Consider this scenario: Your girlfriend is unhappy in your relationship and doesn't tell you. She does not end the relationship but starts to look for other options. Only when she found the new guy and is sure that it will work out, she tells you and kicks you out. What would you say: "Oh, she was unhappy, she is perfectly right to look for better options behind my back while not telling me?" I guess not. You'd feel deceived. You's say that shes not trustworthy. You would never want to talk to her again.

                          That's what's happening here. Lack of transparency, feelings of betrayal.

                          As I said: The US is not a trustworthy partner. The UK under Johnson are behaving like expected...

                          Cheers Andreas
                          Consider this - Your girlfriend is unhappy in your relationship and does tell you. You're arrogant SOB so you don't care. She does not end the relationship but starts to look for other options / perhaps safer options as you don't take her seriously. When she has the courage to move on you go to the pub and bemoan about it to your EU mates.

                          Australian's aren't peons whose taxes are to be sacrificed to French workers. French hubris killed the deal.
                          Time as we say here in Australia for France "to harden up".
                          Last edited by Slats; 09-23-2021, 09:22 AM.
                          John Slater

                          Sydney Australia

                          You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                          Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                          sigpic

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                          • #28
                            In the U.S., we say “grow some balls”.
                            If you can cut, drill, saw, hit things and swear a lot, you're well on the way to building a working model sub.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              For those in France who still feel this was completely unexpected - the culprit is the French govt and media, who thought this was not worthy of being taken seriously

                              Media reports that France was "unaware of"

                              from January 19, 2021 - (9 months prior to ripping up the contract)
                              https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ned-submarines
                              Australia looking for alternatives
                              "Prime Minister Scott Morrison is reportedly increasingly unhappy with the way the Attack class program has been run so far, with “cost blowouts and missed deadlines” leading to apparent tensions between the Australian Department of Defense and the Naval Group, according to the Australian Financial Review. The project is now valued at around $69 billion. Back in 2016, when the Naval Group was selected, the program cost was expected to be in the region of $40 billion. These concerns seem to have escalated as far as talks on the subject between Morrison and French President Emmanuel Macron. The French government holds a controlling stake in the Naval Group."

                              from April 27, 2019 - (2 years and 5 months ago)
                              Problems and culture clashes with DCN

                              https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-...group/11049748

                              There are many others in plain sight on the internet.

                              Here is a synthesis of that information
                              Australian documents showed French submarine project was at risk for years
                              https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...rs-2021-09-21/

                              John Slater

                              Sydney Australia

                              You would not steal a wallet so don't steal people's livelihood.
                              Think of that before your buy "cheap" pirated goods or download others work protected by copyright. Theft is theft.



                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The belief that anything military will be manned in 20 or 30 yrs is pointless, 10 yrs could even be possible. The next belief that submarines will even have a role in 15 yrs is also hard to fathom.

                                The use of cruise and standoff weapons will only increase and be lower cost, SlowMo will not even make any comments on the cost of the hand me downs that will never appear anyway. 10 bil + on subs can be spent better elsewhere. He has 18 months breathing room and the chance to spend even more money that has does not have to account for. Australia has 35,000 km of shoreline, we could get invaded and no one would know for months. Thank god we are going to have a few subs that can save us.

                                "Scotty from marketing" is doing exactly that, not polling well and not able to "pork barrel" his way out of it so let’s make the Chinese the enemy. Australia's growth since 2000 is off the back of one country, China, funny they are now enemy number one.

                                Australia really does not produce anything anymore it is just a quarry, the national pastime now is flipping houses due to the flood of money from China in one way or another.


                                America has run out of wars and the military complex has nothing to do now, let’s make Australia the new base of operations and start awarding the build contracts to all those US companies to come in a have a field day. I think the latest Darwin fuel depot contract went to a Florida company.

                                Funny how no one ever talks about the fact that there is a huge naval base right in the middle of Sydney harbour, is there the possibility that we will be invaded by NZ? Seems the perceived threat is further north, that is even if there is an actual threat?

                                Let’s not forget the F-35 disaster?

                                America has turned into a turkey shoot and no way for anyone to bee able to outline what will happen there in the next 2 yrs let alone 30 yrs.


                                Anyway this is a RC sub forum, that’s why I joined.

                                Regards,

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